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golden delicious -> Turn Length considerations (11/16/2020 2:05:54 PM)

Prompted to post this here from another thread. This represents my musings on the subject based on experience rather than specific test results, feel free to disagree or highlight outright errors.

For any given map scale, there's typically a choice of time scales which might be appropriate, e.g. at 10km/hex you could opt for one-day turns or half-week turns [I originally wrote this article thinking of TOAW III, I'm aware there are other choices]. The game obviously adjusts movement rates accordingly but that's about it, and the choice actually has an enormous effect on the scenario. It's possible to make two scenarios with the same map and OOB, some slight tweaks to events and replacements, but which will play out radically differently based on the time scale selected.

Some of the factors:
Combat: If there are half as many turns, there are necessarily going to be fewer combats, but not half as many as you're likely to have a better chance of getting your units into combat on any given round if the units have more move. However this effect is less pronounced for artillery (provided they have the range) and airpower, which are likely going to be able to blast away every round regardless of the turn scale. This makes those arms more significant if the turn length is shorter.

Fluidity: It's an IGO-UGO system, so if you double the turn length you're doubling the lag between action and reaction. If we're looking at half-week turns, then the attacker in theory has three times as long to create and exploit a breach in the line before his opponent can effectively react versus one-day turns. This is even more severe if you're dealing with a fluid situation and manoeuvre is already dominant: if my panzer division has a move of 32 it can swing around an open flank and get right into your rear all in one turn. This is bad news for an outnumbered defender trying to withdraw. It also seems that, all else being equal, units entrench at a more or less consistent rate in a given turn, regardless of how long that turn is. As such, units will be able to fortify their positions faster if the turn length is shorter. This further contributes to reduced fluidity- and is a compounding factor increasing the significance of artillery which is vital for breaking a fortified position.

Supply: If a unit has half as much move, it will use less supply- although this is not a linear relationship since as above the unit will probably engage in fewer combats too. What's also critical is that units which are cut off from supply are assumed to be cut off for the entire turn: and the effects of being unsupplied scale directly with the turn length. A unit cut off for a week loses double the supply and equipment of a unit cut off for a half week turn. This is a nasty one: we've already established that longer turns make it more likely that your units can be cut off before you can do anything about it, now we know that if that happens you pay twice the price. Conversely with a consistent supply rate, the larger number of combat rounds in a larger number of turns (especially for artillery) can be quite sustainable. It's also notable that there's a penalty to supply recovery for units that moved in the turn: clearly, it's more likely that a unit will move in one full-week turn than in both of two half-week turns, so in the latter case this penalty is less severe.

Reserves: If I have a strategic reserve, it typically takes two turns to get into action: on turn one, it rides the rail to the front and on turn two it rolls up into the action. While both these legs of movement are going to be affected by scaled movement rates, I'd suggest that in most cases this two turn rule is pretty fixed. So depending on your turn scale it could take two days or seven for reinforcements to arrive. This is again a compounding factor on fluidity: the attacker is going to have finished demolishing the defences and will be deep in the rear area by the time the cavalry arrives if you've opted for the longer turn length. Moreover, the ability of the attacker to exploit is going to negate the increased movement rates in the longer turn scale: if that panzer division has 32 MPs I'm not going to bring entrained units right up behind the front line, I'll need to make sure to drop them off a good few hexes back so they don't get caught before they've had a chance to disembark. This is somewhat mitigated by the greater one-turn reach of local reserves which don't have to ride the rail, but if they land on the front with 0 or 1 MPs left that's not much consolation.

One could summarise all this to say that, with a short turn length combat and firepower are relatively more important, whereas with a longer turn length speed and manoeuvre will tend to dominate. I think if I was to make a design recommendation off the back of this, it would be to use this as a balancing factor: if you've a high density scenario where the players are wading through a sea of units every time they attack, a longer turn scale might be appropriate to stop the scenario bogging down. Conversely, if you're dealing with a situation in which there are relatively few units for the space and open flanks are the norm, a shorter turn scale might be important to prevent unrealistic encirclements.

It might also be appropriate in some cases to use the reduced reaction speeds imposed by longer turns to reflect historical paralysis, for example in my Poland scenario, the half-week turns ensure that the Poles really can't mount a coherent response unless the situation becomes well stabilised. This tool should be used with considerable care, however, as it cuts both ways: if we were looking at a more balanced campaign, such as France in 1940, this effect could be used by the Allies to outmanoeuvre the Germans in a way that really would be ahistorical.

I'll close with some of the variables one can set in the scenario to address these issues:
1) Force Supply: I think it stands to reason that supply levels must be lower in a scenario with shorter turn scales- but by less than 50%.
2) Attrition Divider: This is a really blunt instrument and should be used with extreme care. Anyone who's played Bob Cross' strategic scenarios where he has scaled the attrition divider to extremes will be familiar with the result this has, and in particular it doesn't seem to have much if any effect on the lethality of anti-armour weapons. Nevertheless, if you have a shorter turn scale it might be worth adjusting the attrition divider up by a couple of points (a higher divider = fewer losses)
3) Rail (and sea) capacity: Although units will not travel as far in a single turn, in most scenarios rail journeys will still be complete in a single turn, so rail capacity probably needs to be increased in inverse proportion to the number of turns. For the record the same will apply to various other factors like replacements, rail repair and pestilence
4) Cost for converting hexes: This is a tricky one, but clearly if the cost of converting enemy controlled hexes is lower than fluidity will be increased, and the reverse is also true. If you have longer turn lengths and that panzer division always manages to cut the rail line in one turn, you might consider increasing this level to slow its advance- but again this is a blunt instrument. It's also worth noting that this cost isn't paid by units which enter an enemy hex when advancing following an attack.




Raindem -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/16/2020 5:50:52 PM)

I might add one more consideration to your list: Practicality. If your covering a conflict that lasted several years (as I am prone to do in my scenarios) you have to set a reasonable turn limit or the thing will never get played. And sometimes those longer turn intervals may conflict with what you're trying to simulate. T4 has more tools to address these issues. But I still find myself using a turn length that is probably longer than ideal.




golden delicious -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/17/2020 9:54:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem

I might add one more consideration to your list: Practicality. If your covering a conflict that lasted several years (as I am prone to do in my scenarios) you have to set a reasonable turn limit or the thing will never get played.


It's worse than that: if the scenario is impractical to play, it's also impractical to playtest.

I'm currently playing a match of American Front 14 and we're at turn 88 out of 213 or something, and I've already noticed three outright bugs in the design (things that simply do not work which should have been fixed after a single playtest), never mind considerations of whether the intentional design of the scenario actually works. This is inevitable in such large, long scenarios which cannot possibly be tested thoroughly.




Zovs -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/17/2020 12:27:58 PM)

Guys this is great stuff. When I first read Ben's first post I had to re-read it until I understood what he meant by turn length. It is not 75 turns or 12 turns or 150 turns, but it's the number of rounds in a turn and this can be adjust by the factors he mentions.

What I have seen (and somewhat experienced) in my finding is that the AD and MRPB are being used quite frequently to adjust the turn length. Hence my 'quest' to understand AD and MRPB more fully. What is interesting and also confusing from the manual is for example default values versus what the manually says. For example on MRPB the default is 99 (it can only go up to 99) and a vast majority of scenarios (from my database compilation thus far) use a value of 3, but then this also varies depending on hex and turn scale (there is a lot of AD 6 and MRPB 3, and AD 14 and MRPB 5). I have one scenario that I have been working on (its small, a platoon element scenario at 250 meters a hex) that first I had to scale the movement for the USA, having 4 MP was just too slow and boring, raising that up to 8 makes it play much faster and enjoyable (its only 25 turns) and still a challenge. The AD is giving me fits, when left at the default (10) it was just too bloody, and when I used the "basic guestimate" from Bob Cross's posts (112 as a starting point) all I was seeing was in each attack 0% vs. 0% loss and that made no sense. So then I went down to 56, still too many 0%'s, so to 32 and still too many 0%, tried 20 and still not right, finally I am at AD 15 and it is close, but I may end up dropping it to 12 or 13 (need to finish my playtest on it first) and then I'll be mostly happy with it.

I have a company level scenario that is also small, and it's also at 250 meters a hex, and this one plays a lot better on the defaults, but the losses are not quite right and I want to temper the MRPB and adjust the AD to make it a bit more realsitic.

Now I am starting to think I need to add some more data to my database, possibly ground and air shock, there is quite a few scenarios that employ this to varying degrees, as well as AAA Lethality and the other values in the manual (8.5.2.1 - 8.5.2.13) for example.

Also it seems to me that the new Mud and Snow rules (8.5.2.13) along with the Mud drying scaler (17.61 - note I just added this from our other conversation - see stupid questions), and more.

Note I am thinking about re-writing sections 16.24 (and 17) for use with scenario design, currently its a bit convoluted. It's goofy when you look at it, you have 16.0 Information and Player Aids, and up to 16.24 and it makes sense, but then someone stuck in 16.24 (most likely Norm before handing it off to Ralph or Ralph did this himself) The Editor's Edit Menu. Then you have 17.0 Creating Scenarios with the Scenario Editor.

That part is all messed up. Personally I think 17.0 should be The Editor's Edit Menu and then 18 should be Creating Scenarios with the Scenario Editor.

I think for the community manual I am going to change this out.




76mm -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/17/2020 1:05:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
The AD is giving me fits, when left at the default (10) it was just too bloody, and when I used the "basic guestimate" from Bob Cross's posts (112 as a starting point) all I was seeing was in each attack 0% vs. 0% loss and that made no sense. So then I went down to 56, still too many 0%'s, so to 32 and still too many 0%, tried 20 and still not right, finally I am at AD 15 and it is close, but I may end up dropping it to 12 or 13 (need to finish my playtest on it first) and then I'll be mostly happy with it.

Interesting...I'm also working on a platoon scale scenario and found that the default AD was not nearly bloody enough! Single platoons attacked by 4-6 other platoons were losing 0% or 25%. I'm trying to get results close to what would be seen in tactical wargames, which are notoriously--and probably unrealistically--bloody. So currently I'm at an AD of 3, which results in units losing 75% or 100%, which is close to what I want.




golden delicious -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/17/2020 1:14:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Guys this is great stuff. When I first read Ben's first post I had to re-read it until I understood what he meant by turn length. It is not 75 turns or 12 turns or 150 turns, but it's the number of rounds in a turn and this can be adjust by the factors he mentions.


I'm referring to the duration of the individual turns as set in the Calendar Settings, e.g. full day, half day, etc.

quote:

For example on MRPB the default is 99 (it can only go up to 99) and a vast majority of scenarios (from my database compilation thus far) use a value of 3,


99 is a default to be backwards-compatible with scenarios from before the MRPB feature was introduced. MRPB of 3 is considered a common best practice. A higher figure will mean that if you set up an attack with multiple attackers, one attacker might fight on alone for multiple rounds when the others have given up.

The MRPB feature has become dramatically less important due to the introduction of Battlefield Timestamps. Prior to this feature being added, a single unit refusing to break off combat could wipe out the whole turn.

quote:

The AD is giving me fits, when left at the default (10) it was just too bloody, and when I used the "basic guestimate" from Bob Cross's posts (112 as a starting point) all I was seeing was in each attack 0% vs. 0% loss and that made no sense. So then I went down to 56, still too many 0%'s, so to 32 and still too many 0%, tried 20 and still not right, finally I am at AD 15 and it is close, but I may end up dropping it to 12 or 13 (need to finish my playtest on it first) and then I'll be mostly happy with it.


Sid Meier used to say "double it or cut it in half". So if your losses feel wrong, you could try an AD of 5 or 20 and then tweak from there, but 112 is going to make it impossible for anything much short of a nuclear strike to do much damage.

quote:

(most likely Norm before handing it off to Ralph or Ralph did this himself)


"handing it off to" is a highly generous description of what happened. I'm not certain Ralph has ever even spoken to Norm (Saint Norm of Opart, blessings be unto him)




golden delicious -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/17/2020 1:18:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Interesting...I'm also working on a platoon scale scenario and found that the default AD was not nearly bloody enough! Single platoons attacked by 4-6 other platoons were losing 0% or 25%. I'm trying to get results close to what would be seen in tactical wargames, which are notoriously--and probably unrealistically--bloody. So currently I'm at an AD of 3, which results in units losing 75% or 100%, which is close to what I want.


My understanding is that tactical wargames too often have units quite happily obeying orders which lead to them dying for their country- "ignore losses" really does lead them to ignore losses. Faced with overwhelming odds, folks tend to find good reasons to run away- or surrender, depending on the circumstances.

It's instructive to remember that in 20th century warfare, the vast majority of combat deaths are from artillery fire. A shell doesn't care if you wave a white flag.




golden delicious -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/17/2020 1:27:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem

I might add one more consideration to your list: Practicality. If your covering a conflict that lasted several years (as I am prone to do in my scenarios) you have to set a reasonable turn limit or the thing will never get played.


It's worse than that: if the scenario is impractical to play, it's also impractical to playtest.

I'm currently playing a match of American Front 14 and we're at turn 88 out of 213 or something, and I've already noticed three outright bugs in the design (things that simply do not work which should have been fixed after a single playtest), never mind considerations of whether the intentional design of the scenario actually works. This is inevitable in such large, long scenarios which cannot possibly be tested thoroughly.


Thinking about this further (and perhaps stating the obvious), it's not only scenario length that contributes to this issue. While long scenarios tend to be large scenarios, a long scenario with a modest number of mobile units would be more manageable. Played at pace, I can get through an American Front turn in an hour; a scenario where a turn takes fifteen minutes is obviously going to get tested more thoroughly.




Zovs -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/17/2020 2:36:22 PM)

Ben, again great points! Thanks again!

Saint Norm of Opart, blessings and honor
Saint Norm of Opart, wisen and genius
Saint Norm of Opart, to you are beholden
Saint Norm of Opart, mighty and wonderful
Saint Norm of Opart, oh where art thou
Saint Norm of Opart, oh whence thou goest?
Saint Norm of Opart, in the beginning…
Saint Norm of Opart, Alpha, Bravo, Charlie
Saint Norm of Opart, mysterious
Saint Norm of Opart, glorious
Saint Norm of Opart, hexes and counters...

[:D]




76mm -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/17/2020 3:22:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
My understanding is that tactical wargames too often have units quite happily obeying orders which lead to them dying for their country- "ignore losses" really does lead them to ignore losses. Faced with overwhelming odds, folks tend to find good reasons to run away- or surrender, depending on the circumstances.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. But the other issue is that players have absolutely no reason to play conservatively...that's why I only enjoy playing tactical games if they are part of a campaign, which is what I'm trying to do here. You play very differently.




golden delicious -> RE: Turn Length considerations (11/17/2020 3:57:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


Yes, I'm well aware of that. But the other issue is that players have absolutely no reason to play conservatively...that's why I only enjoy playing tactical games if they are part of a campaign, which is what I'm trying to do here. You play very differently.


Oh indeed. I like games where one has some role in building one's force up so that units have more significance, that one knows that any units lost will be difficult to replace. They don't just pop back onto the map as a reconstitute- you start again with a raw cadre or nothing.




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