The Liberation of Paris? (Full Version)

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mdsmall -> The Liberation of Paris? (11/21/2020 9:30:44 PM)

What happens if the Allies liberate Paris by recapturing it later in the game (along historical lines) after France has surrendered in 1940 to the Axis?

Do the retreating Germans always carry out scorched earth on the city and damage its supply levels?

More importantly, does Paris return to being the Capital of France and is France reconstituted as a Major Power with all the normal attributes (e.g. ability to build new French units, invest in tech etc)? If so, how does that work?

I am playing the Allies for the first time and am curious to know if I should make recapturing Paris a strategic priority when I decide where to invade in north-western Europe.



Zuxius -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/22/2020 12:31:33 PM)

Recapturing Paris is pretty huge actually. If you look in the win conditions there is no Axis Victory, really, without having it. See Strategy Guide.
No decisive. No Major No Minor.
Also look at Russia surrender conditions.
DE 417 - USSR: Offer To Surrender? won’t fire.

Though this is just an option for you to bow out for a Major Victory for the Axis if they accept.




mdsmall -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/22/2020 12:52:08 PM)

Good point. From a strategic perspective, the Allies do need to recapture Paris to win the game.

However, I was looking at this from a more immediate operational planning perspective. As the Allies, I could target anywhere as the landing beach for my version of D-Day from the Atlantic coast of France, to the English Channel, to Flanders, the Netherlands or even north-west Germany. There are all pros and cons of each of these choices, ranging from distance from ports and airfields in the U.K to strength of the Axis defences.

One additional factor I'd like to take into account are the tactical consequences of recapturing the city of Paris. Should this be an immediate goal after a successful amphibious assault - which would argue for landing in Normandy; or is it just a large city which I should recapture somewhere along the way to Berlin?



Taxman66 -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/22/2020 1:42:30 PM)

France becomes liberated and a functional major when the Allies take Paris.
However note:
1a) France will have gained no Tech in the intervening time so the forces she builds are hopelessly out classed. Useful for mostly cleaning up back areas and perhaps against Italy if they are still in the war.
1b) Even worse any Free French units the CW controlled will be turned over to France; AND THEY REVERT BACK TO FRENCH TECH LEVELS (thus throwing away better equipment).
2) If needed France's most useful or rather cost effective use of MPP is in Diplo chits.
3) If the Axis retake Paris France gets knocked out permanently. DO NOT liberate Paris until you are 99% sure you can hold it.



Markiss -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/22/2020 5:25:59 PM)

Wouldn't France being knocked out of the war permanently be a good thing for the Allies? If they they are out, then the mmp's from whatever cities are held by the WAllies would go to the holding power, and could be used to buy useful units. If France is revived, the mmp's are wasted, for the reasons stated above.

I have actually considered not taking Paris even if I could, just to stop France from being revived. All they do is get in the way.

This is unhistorical, as during the war liberated French troops were supplied with modern weapons by the WAllies. On the other hand, they had their own motivations and would frequently disregard orders, reducing their effectiveness. I suspect the reason this hasn't been hashed out and dealt with is that by the time Paris is being liberated, the game is largely over with anyway. Does it really matter what the French do after the WAllies are on the continent in force? Probably not.



mdsmall -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/22/2020 6:02:25 PM)


quote:

Does it really matter what the French do after the WAllies are on the continent in force? Probably not.


Good points. No, it does not matter much in terms of defeating the Nazis in this game. But in terms of winning the post-war, liberating Paris and reviving the French as sovereign power was critical for the Western Allies. In my current game, I can already see a race shaping up between the Russians and the British+Americans for who will get to Berlin first (and I am playing both of those sides!). Someone could write an interesting mod that reflects wartime tensions and suspicions among the "Big Three" and the importance of who ends up controlling what piece of real-estate in Europe after the unconditional surrender of Germany. But that's a subject for another thread....

Michael



mdsmall -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/23/2020 2:06:17 AM)

Thinking about the question I posed above a bit more, one clear reason for making the recapture of Paris a priority for the Allies, would be the supply benefits of having a Major Power Capital again as the base for Allied supply chains on the Continent. Not only would that enable all other recaptured French cities and towns with a rail link to Paris to offer their maximum supply levels to the Allies, but the same would apply to recaptured Belgium and Dutch towns and cities too, since they end up being Allied minors, following the initial German invasion.



Markiss -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/23/2020 1:32:44 PM)

To provide some motivation for the WAllies to revive France it might help if the French got a some units upon liberation. Maybe a couple half strength corps, a half strength de Gaulle HQ, and perhaps a half strength armored unit to represent Leclerc and his band of merry men. These units would have to be reinforced and upgraded, but it is better than having to wait for a half liberated France to accumulate enough mmp's to buy units, then have to wait again for them to come up in the que. By the time anything came on line, the game would be over.

I also think you would have to allow these units to be upgraded to at least UK levels. France is not building it's own equipment, it is being supplied, so indigenous French tech levels are irrelevant. Simply bump them up to whatever the UK or US has upon liberation, and have them go from there.

A few hundred mmp's could also be provided to France upon liberation to represent allied assistance.

If these things were done, I believe that it would provide proper motivation for the liberation of France and more closely represent the actual historical situation. I don't think it would make much of a difference in the outcome of the game, but maybe that isn't the point.



mdsmall -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/23/2020 3:28:06 PM)

Those sound like all very good ideas to make the game more realistic. And I am sure inventive players would find practical uses for a revived French Major power, even if it had to be underwritten by British and Americans.



BillRunacre -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/23/2020 4:05:14 PM)

France does already receive 225 MPPs when it is liberated, at 75MPPs a turn over 3 turns. I guess it could be more if needed, but the principle is already in place.



Markiss -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/23/2020 5:52:47 PM)

I don't think any of this is "needed". It was just to possibly add a little flavor to the game, and avoid gamey "leave Paris occupied" strategies.

In addition, by May 1945, the Free French forces numbered 1,250,000, including 7 Infantry Divisions and 3 armored divisions. This is not reflected in this game, and cannot be because France does not make enough mmps to buy and equip those troops. A change might be considered just for the sake historical accuracy.

If the French were to be given troops, the script would have to be written carefully, to avoid some sort of "Airdrop on Paris" strategy to create an instant force in the middle of occupied France. That wouldn't be right either.

And thanks for pointing out France's existing Allied assistance, I never noticed it. Probably because my WAllies rarely liberate France...



Will952 -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/23/2020 8:20:19 PM)

Another suggestion would be to have a large number of additional partisan tiles across France and Vichy France become 'live' once Paris is liberated.



mdsmall -> RE: The Liberation of Paris? (11/28/2020 8:48:59 PM)

Having just finished my first PBEM game as Allies with a successful invasion of France by the British and Americans, I can provide my own answers to the questions I posed above:

- In my game, the Germans put up a good fight to defend Paris, given the you can entrench up to level 6 there. But once the defending Germans corps was destroyed, there were no scorched earth effects.

- The supply benefits of having a friendly Major Power Capital on the continent to anchor my supply lines were considerable. My Allied HQs on every recaptured city, whether in France, Belgium or Germany, moved up from 8 to 10 level supply. This makes a big difference in terms of reinforcing units to full strength, to the supply range of my HQs, and in the combat effectiveness.

- While the game ended in an Allied Decisive Victory about five turns after I captured Paris, I still found a modest use for the MPPs that France earned once it was revived as a Major. French garrisons (which can be built in 1 turn) are useful for recapturing unoccupied French towns or defending rearguard areas. And French MPPs can be used to fund diplomacy, since France returned to the game with 3 Diplomacy chits.

- Given the above, I don't see the benefits to not taking Paris, if you are in a position to do so as the Allies. The only case I can see when you might do so is if you are are still in a knock-down and drag out fight against the Axis and you really need to keep all the MPPs you can get for British or US Production. But if that is the situation, you are not likely to be in a position on the board to retake Paris in the first place.

- I agree with everyone else that the "Rip Van Winkle effect" on French tech is strange. A restored French Major in 1943 or 1944 acts just like it is still June 1940. Surely they would have learned something from the long years fighting in exile as the Free French, using British or American equipment. The contrast with the Italians, after they are defeated as an Axis Major and switch sides, is striking.



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