Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09

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AlvaroSousa -> Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 3:16:32 PM)
MAIN CHANGES THAT IMPACT NEW GAMES in the upcoming 1.00.09 patch #1 Rules will be the latest from the direct link on the Matrix menu. #2 (page 81) Pursuit Combat – A fleet composed of battle, cruiser, patrol, and carrier groups may perform pursuit combat after moving and expending all their operation points and their move ends within combat range of the enemy. This allows units to attack enemy fleets even if their operation points are all used. Pursuit combat is done as normal combat with some differences. Moving fleets must be in fleet mode, not have been interdicted, not end their move in port, and not combine with another fleet. Normal search rolls are made. Any combat is at 50% combat value. Surface fleets will not succeed in pursuing a carrier fleet. #3 (page 83) Sub Hunters – Naval fleets on a convoy hex icon will protect all friendly convoys within a 24 hex radius by adding a bonus to any escorts protecting a convoy attack in that area. Carrier battle groups add a 2% bonus to convoy escort damage chances vs subs. Patrol groups add a 1% bonus to convoy escort damage chances vs subs within their radius of protection. #4 Poland - If Poland isn't conquered by October 13th The UK gains a polish air unit #5 Belgium - Will join the Allies if Netherlands is invaded Note: I did a lot of research on this and found thesis by the Faculty of the US Army Command and General Staff College from 1977 on the situation in Western Europe from the 1920s-1940s. The paper had sufficient evidence that Belgium would have very likely let the Allies through their country to protect Netherlands from invasion if not directly joining the Allies cause. This doesn't mean the opposite was true if Belgium was attacked and not Netherlands. #6 Italy - Morale break set to ZERO until the USA is in the war. Italy will also become a full Axis partner if the Allies invade Persia or Iraq #7 USA - +30 if Greenland invaded #8 USSR - Lend Lease Persia route added when the rail line from Bandar Shapur to Baku is Allied controlled #9 Spain - Will become an Axis minor ally is the Allies invade Portugal #10 Iron Ore Route - is now considered a safe convoy lane. It can't be raided by the enemy. But Narvik can still be occupied to block it.

Omnius -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 3:43:04 PM)
I like change #9, good way to make this cheap trick less effective. I also like change #10. I found that dropping a large British surface fleet on the Iron Ore route in winter could cause up to 15 hits in one turn. It could really waste the German merchant shipping fleet way too early I did a game where I had the Allies declare war on Iraq and Persia yet really had trouble seeing where the oil went to. I didn't really see it register for Italy which gained Iraq or Germany which gained Persia. Exactly how does an Axis player get oil from Iraq and Persia to Italy and Germany? Can Alvaro elucidate more on how the Sub Hunters work. How many ships do we need to use and is this another case of big stacks cause big casualties?

MorningDew -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 3:43:56 PM)
#5 - yeah! Been wanting that for a long time. This will finally make 1939/1940 feel more historical. #10 - I would throw out that if the allies control any port in Norway, the route should be blocked.

Harrybanana -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 4:34:00 PM)
I like all these changes too. #9 - Spain should become an Allied minor Ally if the Axis invade Portugal as well. Or at a minimum the Spanish forces should be beefed up if this happens. Otherwise we may see a lot of players doing what Comradekorps did in his game with Magicmissile. As is it is too easy for the Axis to knock out Spain in 1 turn if they conquer portugal. #10- I agree with MM that if the Allies control any port in Norway it should either block the iron ore route or at least allow the Allies to raid it.

Omnius -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 4:48:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana I like all these changes too. #9 - Spain should become an Allied minor Ally if the Axis invade Portugal as well. Or at a minimum the Spanish forces should be beefed up if this happens. Otherwise we may see a lot of players doing what Comradekorps did in his game with Magicmissile. As is it is too easy for the Axis to knock out Spain in 1 turn if they conquer portugal. #10- I agree with MM that if the Allies control any port in Norway it should either block the iron ore route or at least allow the Allies to raid it. @Harrybanana - Only Narvik should trigger that as that was the only port the Swedish iron ore flowed out of during winter months.

michaelCLARADY -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 5:54:19 PM)
Hmmmmm, #5 will force a large large change in German strategy in Western Europe. Single turn takedowns of Netherlands and Belgium are mandatory to avoid some rather annoying Allied counter measures. BTW, does this mean that Belgium will immediately exercise a zone of control on Germans in Holland? A one two punch of smash Netherlands and then Belgium one or more turns later has been rather easy. Taking down both in a single turn will require some thought.

michaelCLARADY -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 6:00:42 PM)
I believe it more likely that Spain would join the Axis if Germany invades and actually defeats Portugal. Go with the Winner especially if you are thinking their way in any case. For Germany such a conquest would require some nerve and luck.

Omnius -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 6:02:08 PM)
I definitely like rule change #5, cuts down on the take one down at a time gimmick that's been so widely abused. Brings WarPlan more in line with other games and history. Let an Allied player play some gimmick move onto the continent if it takes more than one turn to take down either country.

ComadrejaKorp -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 6:03:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana I like all these changes too. #9 - Spain should become an Allied minor Ally if the Axis invade Portugal as well. Or at a minimum the Spanish forces should be beefed up if this happens. Otherwise we may see a lot of players doing what Comradekorps did in his game with Magicmissile. As is it is too easy for the Axis to knock out Spain in 1 turn if they conquer portugal. #10- I agree with MM that if the Allies control any port in Norway it should either block the iron ore route or at least allow the Allies to raid it. Spain joining the allies would not be correct, the invasion of Portugal is easy to prevent, with 1 or 2 BB on the coast of Portugal is enough. All the changes seem very good to me! Let's see if these don't unbalance the game, I'm looking forward to trying them!

Omnius -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 6:10:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp Spain joining the allies would not be correct, the invasion of Portugal is easy to prevent, with 1 or 2 BB on the coast of Portugal is enough. All the changes seem very good to me! Let's see if these don't unbalance the game, I'm looking forward to trying them! @ComradejaKorp - Your BB's on the Portugal coast would quickly become toast! The only way to defend Portugal against a legit invasion is to have units in Spain already. Sorry but these changes are excellent ways to cut down on cheap tricks.

Harrybanana -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 6:34:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana I like all these changes too. #9 - Spain should become an Allied minor Ally if the Axis invade Portugal as well. Or at a minimum the Spanish forces should be beefed up if this happens. Otherwise we may see a lot of players doing what Comradekorps did in his game with Magicmissile. As is it is too easy for the Axis to knock out Spain in 1 turn if they conquer portugal. #10- I agree with MM that if the Allies control any port in Norway it should either block the iron ore route or at least allow the Allies to raid it. @Harrybanana - Only Narvik should trigger that as that was the only port the Swedish iron ore flowed out of during winter months. True, but the reason the Germans had success in moving the iron ore from Narvik to Germany without being intercepted by the RN is because they hugged the coast and took advantage of the numerous islands (50,000+) off the Norwegian coast to hide their movements. If the British controlled even one port along the coast of Norway it would have forced the German convoy ships to leave the protection of the Norwegian coast and enter the North Sea. Here they would have been far more vulnerable to Allied Raiders.

Harrybanana -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 6:41:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY I believe it more likely that Spain would join the Axis if Germany invades and actually defeats Portugal. Go with the Winner especially if you are thinking their way in any case. For Germany such a conquest would require some nerve and luck. Franco was extremely resistant to Axis pressure. He would not have joined the Axis if Germany conquered Portugal. But he would have realized that this was an obvious prelude to a German invasion of Spain. So either he would have joined the Allies or at least mobilized the Spanish armed foces.

Harrybanana -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 6:50:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana I like all these changes too. #9 - Spain should become an Allied minor Ally if the Axis invade Portugal as well. Or at a minimum the Spanish forces should be beefed up if this happens. Otherwise we may see a lot of players doing what Comradekorps did in his game with Magicmissile. As is it is too easy for the Axis to knock out Spain in 1 turn if they conquer portugal. #10- I agree with MM that if the Allies control any port in Norway it should either block the iron ore route or at least allow the Allies to raid it. Spain joining the allies would not be correct, the invasion of Portugal is easy to prevent, with 1 or 2 BB on the coast of Portugal is enough. All the changes seem very good to me! Let's see if these don't unbalance the game, I'm looking forward to trying them! Perhaps Spain wouldn't join the Allies, but it would have mobilized its armed forces. I just don't like the fact that with a conquest of Portugal Spain will fall in 1 turn. I did this myself as the Allies (prior to the Rule change) but I felt guilty doing it. The fact that something is easy to prevent doesn't justify it. Its like saying that it shouldn't be illegal for a person to rob my house because I could have just locked my door. You may recall that in our game I kept naval units off the coast of Portugal because I was worried that you were going to do to me what you did to MM. Was that your plan?

Harrybanana -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 6:53:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius quote: ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp Spain joining the allies would not be correct, the invasion of Portugal is easy to prevent, with 1 or 2 BB on the coast of Portugal is enough. All the changes seem very good to me! Let's see if these don't unbalance the game, I'm looking forward to trying them! @ComradejaKorp - Your BB's on the Portugal coast would quickly become toast! The only way to defend Portugal against a legit invasion is to have units in Spain already. Sorry but these changes are excellent ways to cut down on cheap tricks. ComradejaKorp was referring to the British preventing a Axis invasion, not the Axis using BB to prevent an Allied invasion.

Harrybanana -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 6:54:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius quote: ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp Spain joining the allies would not be correct, the invasion of Portugal is easy to prevent, with 1 or 2 BB on the coast of Portugal is enough. All the changes seem very good to me! Let's see if these don't unbalance the game, I'm looking forward to trying them! @ComradejaKorp - Your BB's on the Portugal coast would quickly become toast! The only way to defend Portugal against a legit invasion is to have units in Spain already. Sorry but these changes are excellent ways to cut down on cheap tricks. ComradejaKorp was referring to the British preventing a Axis invasion, not the Axis using BB to prevent an Allied invasion. So the "cheap trick" in this case is the Axis invading Portugal to take down Spain in one turn.

ncc1701e -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 7:27:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY Hmmmmm, #5 will force a large large change in German strategy in Western Europe. Single turn takedowns of Netherlands and Belgium are mandatory to avoid some rather annoying Allied counter measures. BTW, does this mean that Belgium will immediately exercise a zone of control on Germans in Holland? A one two punch of smash Netherlands and then Belgium one or more turns later has been rather easy. Taking down both in a single turn will require some thought. Perfectly feasible in one turn but beware of the French counter attack: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4784371

ncc1701e -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 7:28:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY I believe it more likely that Spain would join the Axis if Germany invades and actually defeats Portugal. Go with the Winner especially if you are thinking their way in any case. For Germany such a conquest would require some nerve and luck. +1

ComadrejaKorp -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 8:28:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana quote: ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana I like all these changes too. #9 - Spain should become an Allied minor Ally if the Axis invade Portugal as well. Or at a minimum the Spanish forces should be beefed up if this happens. Otherwise we may see a lot of players doing what Comradekorps did in his game with Magicmissile. As is it is too easy for the Axis to knock out Spain in 1 turn if they conquer portugal. #10- I agree with MM that if the Allies control any port in Norway it should either block the iron ore route or at least allow the Allies to raid it. Spain joining the allies would not be correct, the invasion of Portugal is easy to prevent, with 1 or 2 BB on the coast of Portugal is enough. All the changes seem very good to me! Let's see if these don't unbalance the game, I'm looking forward to trying them! Perhaps Spain wouldn't join the Allies, but it would have mobilized its armed forces. I just don't like the fact that with a conquest of Portugal Spain will fall in 1 turn. I did this myself as the Allies (prior to the Rule change) but I felt guilty doing it. The fact that something is easy to prevent doesn't justify it. Its like saying that it shouldn't be illegal for a person to rob my house because I could have just locked my door. You may recall that in our game I kept naval units off the coast of Portugal because I was worried that you were going to do to me what you did to MM. Was that your plan? HarryBanana I respect your opinion, mine is that after the Spanish civil war the situation here was very precarious, if you add the invasion of Portugal and Vichy France, Franco would have asked to please join the Axis, he would avoid war. It is very easy to defend, you do not even need fleets stationed on the coast, the Axis needs a turn at sea before attacking from France, (not from Vichy Afrika, but the Axis would take longer). I wouldn't leave the door open if I was at war! I think you have to prevent, if not, you will have to pay for not doing it. note: It is the first time I do it, in our game I had other plans (which did not go well).

ComadrejaKorp -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 8:30:29 PM)
Thanks for the clarification to Omnius, maybe I don't explain it well.

ComadrejaKorp -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (11/30/2020 8:47:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius quote: ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp Spain joining the allies would not be correct, the invasion of Portugal is easy to prevent, with 1 or 2 BB on the coast of Portugal is enough. All the changes seem very good to me! Let's see if these don't unbalance the game, I'm looking forward to trying them! @ComradejaKorp - Your BB's on the Portugal coast would quickly become toast! The only way to defend Portugal against a legit invasion is to have units in Spain already. Sorry but these changes are excellent ways to cut down on cheap tricks. ComradejaKorp was referring to the British preventing a Axis invasion, not the Axis using BB to prevent an Allied invasion. So the "cheap trick" in this case is the Axis invading Portugal to take down Spain in one turn. For me, the ´´cheap trick´´ is that Spain does not join the Axis directly. That Spain falls in a single turn is a consequence of the failure of the Allies in the preventive defense of Portugal.

michaelCLARADY -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/1/2020 3:35:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Harrybanana quote: ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY I believe it more likely that Spain would join the Axis if Germany invades and actually defeats Portugal. Go with the Winner especially if you are thinking their way in any case. For Germany such a conquest would require some nerve and luck. Franco was extremely resistant to Axis pressure. He would not have joined the Axis if Germany conquered Portugal. But he would have realized that this was an obvious prelude to a German invasion of Spain. So either he would have joined the Allies or at least mobilized the Spanish armed foces. Franco was reluctant to take large risks with his war hammered nation but that does not mean that he did not prefer Germany to his historic UK and French enemies. German occupation of Portugal likely would be seen as a display of German strength and the winner to back same as the game already provides for in a successful German invasion of lower England.

michaelCLARADY -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/1/2020 3:47:21 PM)
Regarding #5- should this not also apply if Luxembourg is invaded by Germany?

AlvaroSousa -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/1/2020 8:48:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY Regarding #5- should this not also apply if Luxembourg is invaded by Germany? I've been thinking about what to do with them.

ncc1701e -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/1/2020 9:02:42 PM)
Assigns Luxembourg a panzer corps. [:D]

michaelCLARADY -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/1/2020 10:24:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Omnius quote: ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp Spain joining the allies would not be correct, the invasion of Portugal is easy to prevent, with 1 or 2 BB on the coast of Portugal is enough. All the changes seem very good to me! Let's see if these don't unbalance the game, I'm looking forward to trying them! @ComradejaKorp - Your BB's on the Portugal coast would quickly become toast! The only way to defend Portugal against a legit invasion is to have units in Spain already. Sorry but these changes are excellent ways to cut down on cheap tricks. How would you engage those BB's ?

AlvaroSousa -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/2/2020 11:39:35 AM)
The recent change in Spain was due to extensive research on my part into the mind of Franco and his thoughts about the war.

ago1000 -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/2/2020 1:42:04 PM)
Any thought of possibly having UK garrisons requirements in Palestine and Egypt similar to Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia? May help with the swapping out of French troops with UK troops in North Africa.

ComadrejaKorp -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/2/2020 2:03:36 PM)
If we want to prohibit this maneuver, it would complicate it a little, but there is time to bring troops from the UK.

AlvaroSousa -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/2/2020 2:30:27 PM)
The garrison situation is fine. I don't think it benefits the Allied played to play checkers with UK and French units. The French are worse than the UK units. Stuffing Germany in France with everything is a pivotal point in shifting the game. So if the Allied player wants just to put crappy French units in France, be my guest. Realize lower experience = greater chance of retreat.

ago1000 -> RE: Upcoming Major Changes 1.00.09 (12/2/2020 3:51:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp If we want to prohibit this maneuver, it would complicate it a little, but there is time to bring troops from the UK. I see your point. Also players could simply make it a house rule in a multiplayer game. I'm hoping to play my first multiplayer game with this upcoming update. I know for sure, I'm not as strategically sound as you. Reading over MMs AAR with you. Those games are awesome. Thank you. Thanks Alvaro for your response.

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