Problem with guerillas? (Full Version)

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Dr_Talon -> Problem with guerillas? (12/6/2020 2:29:54 AM)

I have been playing the Yugoslavia scenario, which I used to play on TOAW III. However, around turn 25 or so, every unit I have loses supply. Not only my conventional troops and irregulars lose supply, but also my Chetnik guerrillas. I am confused by why I am suddenly having a supply blackout, and even more so by the fact that I thought that guerillas were never unsupplied.

Is this a rule change in TOAW IV, a bug, or a bad porting of the scenario?



Zovs -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/6/2020 10:45:10 AM)

What’s the exact name and version of the scenario?



Dr_Talon -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/6/2020 7:24:44 PM)

The problem is that when I try to be precise with numbers, I am told that I cannot post phone numbers, links, etc. from the date of my tenth post. For that reason, I had to edit my OP to be more vague in order to post it. The scenario is at the very bottom of “WWII - misc.” and designed by Igor Rzaunek.



Lobster -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/6/2020 7:30:52 PM)

Some people just post ten or more posts with

...

in some seldom used forum. [:D]



Dr_Talon -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/9/2020 5:52:26 AM)

It turns out that when I lose the supply point at Uzice, I lose all supply. However, why then would my guerilla units be unsupplied?



Raindem -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/9/2020 5:23:09 PM)

Guerilla units are supplied when they first enter. But if they move off that original hex, or if enemy units move adjacent to them, then the regular supply rules start to kick in. They still retain some supply benefits over regular units but it is possible to put them out of supply. This is just based off of my observations in scenarios with Guerilla units. There's probably a bunch of other factors in play I'm not aware of.



76mm -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/9/2020 5:33:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raindem
Guerilla units are supplied when they first enter. But if they move off that original hex, or if enemy units move adjacent to them, then the regular supply rules start to kick in. They still retain some supply benefits over regular units but it is possible to put them out of supply.

Section 16.1.2 of the manual says: "Guerrilla units always draw at least “normal” supply, regardless of whether their location is friendly-supplied or not."



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/9/2020 6:53:46 PM)

I think the G's are 'Unsupplied' but still get [draw] supply. Leave one of them alone for a turn and see what their Supply level does compared to a non-G unit in the same situation. This is similar to 'Airborne' supply, where units are definitely Unsupplid but can still get some from 'air drops'.



Dr_Talon -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/9/2020 8:53:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I think the G's are 'Unsupplied' but still get [draw] supply. Leave one of them alone for a turn and see what their Supply level does compared to a non-G unit in the same situation. This is similar to 'Airborne' supply, where units are definitely Unsupplid but can still get some from 'air drops'.


Well, I’ll have to do some detailed observation, but I left the game on autoplay until turn 33. All of my units (except for the most recent reinforcements) had 1-2% supply, and the manpower was greatly reduced from desertions. All of the ones that I checked had something like “8 of 78 rifle squads”. They were essentially combat useless.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/10/2020 1:00:43 PM)

quote:

Well, I’ll have to do some detailed observation

Yes, it's not always easy to detect. Sometimes you will only get 1 Supply a turn. I guess is it possible to get less if the 'regular' Supply Level was low enough. Once below the threshold, Desertions do begin.

However, if 'Guerrilla units are always supplied', then it seems they shouldn't be 'unsupplied'. Do the units in question have the 'G' Icon? I'm not sure which Yugoslavia scenario you are playing.

Also, Curt said this earlier - Guerilla units are supplied when they first enter. But if they move off that original hex, or if enemy units move adjacent to them, then the regular supply rules start to kick in.
I'm not aware of that, so we may be up against something not well documented, or something else, something more ... evil.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/10/2020 2:25:30 PM)

I'd be interested to know if he is using Old or New Supply Rules. Or whether that makes a difference. (Maybe this fell through the cracks with New Supply).



Zovs -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/10/2020 9:24:37 PM)

For myself I always am using the New Supply Rules. I’ll try to keep my eyes open since I have several scenarios that use both partisans and new supply rules.



Dr_Talon -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/11/2020 2:18:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

I'd be interested to know if he is using Old or New Supply Rules. Or whether that makes a difference. (Maybe this fell through the cracks with New Supply).


I've been using new supply rules, although I went back into my save and switched them off mid-game (I don't know if that works or not) and still get the same results. When I played this in TOAW III I don't remember having this issue.

quote:

Do the units in question have the 'G' Icon? I'm not sure which Yugoslavia scenario you are playing.


Yes, they do. And while I would love to tell you the exact name of the scenario, this forum forbids me from using numbers until my 10th post or so. But it is the very last scenario in the "WWII - misc." folder.



Zovs -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/11/2020 1:00:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr_Talon
Yes, they do. And while I would love to tell you the exact name of the scenario, this forum forbids me from using numbers until my 10th post or so. But it is the very last scenario in the "WWII - misc." folder.


Go to the General forum and post a new thread saying you'd like your restrictions lifted. Von Paulus will hook you up.


Then you'll be free to posted.

BTW I have a heavily modified Balkans scenario that I have upgraded from TOAW III (or before) for TOAW IV (new color mod, added in supply points for new supply rules, updated map, units, etc.) I has part of Yugoslavia on it, but once the Axis take a key city then all the Yugo's units are removed. So not sure if this is the same scenario or not.

PS I plan on posting a slew of updated, revised and refreshed scenarios by end of the year.



sPzAbt653 -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/11/2020 2:32:52 PM)

I think it's this one, thanks. Lots of G's and also multiple Supply Points for them.

One of us will have to set up a test scenario to see what is going on.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/D24C9191F7994E95B0CF52E753BD49DA.jpg[/image]



Zovs -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/11/2020 3:00:17 PM)

Thanks Steve, I’ll have to look fir that scenario, the one I have modified is different.



MilanceMileIde12 -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/12/2020 10:20:56 PM)

Made an account to say that I'm experiencing the same issue. What's happening in my game is that once every 4-5 turns,all my guerrillas get supplies,but are left un-supplied for the next 4-5 turns and become,as someone already said,useless. The hex they are standing on doesn't matter,they hexes next to them show that they're un-supplied (except for that one turn),be it in a city or in the middle of a mountain. The exception to all of this is one island with a port,where units get 40+ supply points(or whatever you call them) every single turn.



Dr_Talon -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/13/2020 3:23:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

I think it's this one, thanks. Lots of G's and also multiple Supply Points for them.

One of us will have to set up a test scenario to see what is going on.

[image]local://upfiles/24850/D24C9191F7994E95B0CF52E753BD49DA.jpg[/image]


That’s the one. I love that scenario, because it’s one of the only ones which has a focus on guerrilla warfare. I love the feeling of that game, especially the early game, when my modest guerrilla bands are hiding in the mountains and the forests, surrounded by powerful conventional troops. It feels exhilarating to surround and destroy an enemy unit, to temporarily liberate a city, or to carve out zones of control. It feels like Red Dawn at a strategic level.

I wish there were more scenarios focusing on partisan warfare. There could be scenarios about other WWII resistance movements, about post-war insurgencies against Soviet domination (like the Forest Brothers of the Baltic nations) or the Nicaraguan Civil War. There are so many unexplored possibilities.



MilanceMileIde12 -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/13/2020 12:25:51 PM)

While I agree that having more scenarios like this would be a good thing,the game wasn't made for this kind of scenario. This is especially evident in this one. The creator had to simplify the war a lot for it to work out. It just isn't possible to be historically accurate with the 2-side system of this game.

It's still a good scenario,considering the limitations the creator had.



Dr_Talon -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/13/2020 10:08:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MilanceMileIde12

While I agree that having more scenarios like this would be a good thing,the game wasn't made for this kind of scenario. This is especially evident in this one. The creator had to simplify the war a lot for it to work out. It just isn't possible to be historically accurate with the 2-side system of this game.

It's still a good scenario,considering the limitations the creator had.


True, although Yugoslavia was unusually complex, no? I'm sure that there could be good scenarios done on the wars that I mentioned,or the Soviet-Afgan war. The Lithuanian resistance against the Soviets was pretty clear-cut, from what I understand.



Dr_Talon -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/14/2020 1:38:09 AM)

In any case, this is one of my favorite scenarios since it is so unique. Assuming that this is a bug, would anyone know how to fix it?



MilanceMileIde12 -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/14/2020 9:36:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr_Talon

True, although Yugoslavia was unusually complex, no?




You're right. It was especially so from the "Chetnik" side of view. The creator unfortunately had to lump them all together into the Axis,which isn't really historically accurate.




golden delicious -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/14/2020 12:16:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dr_Talon


True, although Yugoslavia was unusually complex, no? I'm sure that there could be good scenarios done on the wars that I mentioned,or the Soviet-Afgan war. The Lithuanian resistance against the Soviets was pretty clear-cut, from what I understand.


I'm pretty sure that the Soviet-Afghan war saw lots of different flavours of Afghan resistance who would be quite happy to kill one another- as in fact they promptly did as soon as the Soviets disappeared. Are continuing to do, now that I mention it.

Anyway, the trouble is that most guerrilla movements are pretty feeble. In most cases, it would be an exaggeration to put a guerrilla unit on the map. How many Soviet soldiers were actually killed by the abovementioned Lithuanian resistance, for example? Guerrillas are romantic and they're "cool" in a TOAW scenario, but normally the scenario is going to be less realistic for including them on the map. After all, you don't have a unit for the local gendarmerie which are primarily responsible for suppressing them, nor indeed is the designer going to want to get into the dirty business of actually fighting a guerrilla war- which tends to involve killing civilians as much as it does killing enemy soldiers.



golden delicious -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/14/2020 12:17:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MilanceMileIde12


You're right. It was especially so from the "Chetnik" side of view. The creator unfortunately had to lump them all together into the Axis,which isn't really historically accurate.




Even lumping the Axis together is problematic. The Italians and Croats, for example, had decidedly divergent goals. At a minimum, one would need a long list of house rules for how the various units could be handled.



Zovs -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/14/2020 1:00:20 PM)

I think one word would suffice. Abstraction.

There are many ways to abstract partisans, including using the on map counters and the unseen events to recreate various partisan problems, but as stated when you get into some problematic areas, you will need more than 2 players, which TOAW does not support. So that leads back to using abstraction as best as possible.



golden delicious -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/14/2020 2:41:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I think one word would suffice. Abstraction.

There are many ways to abstract partisans, including using the on map counters and the unseen events to recreate various partisan problems, but as stated when you get into some problematic areas, you will need more than 2 players, which TOAW does not support. So that leads back to using abstraction as best as possible.


Absolutely. It doesn't work great in strategic scenarios, but for a campaign the guerrilla event effect is pretty good. In effect, it means you can't count on controlling any part of the map you're not physically holding down- or at least have visited recently. One can even consider a 100% guerrilla effect: if you're not at least adjacent to the hex, it belongs to the other force.



MilanceMileIde12 -> RE: Problem with guerillas? (12/14/2020 8:42:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Even lumping the Axis together is problematic. The Italians and Croats, for example, had decidedly divergent goals. At a minimum, one would need a long list of house rules for how the various units could be handled.



Yeah. It sometimes happened that the Italian army helped the "Chetniks" against the Croatians. The "Chetiniks" were only supposed to be (loosely) allied with the Axis until the Allies came and liberated the country (which never happened,of course). Even while allied with the Germans,they were mostly fighting the Croatians. Then there's the problem that the central "Chetnik" command couldn't possibly control all the little units dotted all over the countries. Yugoslavia in WWII could only be accurately depicted in it's own game,even then.



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