Should I play Japan or Allies ? (Full Version)

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nukkxx5058 -> Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/7/2020 3:22:00 PM)

Which side should I play first in a GC or in a PBEM ?
It seeems many players prefer allies (maybe because they are American?), but not sure why ?

Whould appreciate your views about it, pros and cons of each side.

Thanks.



Yaab -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/7/2020 3:24:54 PM)

Jesus Christ, play the Allies! Stay away from the Japanese economy - it hurts!



btd64 -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/7/2020 3:31:05 PM)

I usually play the allies but if you prefer to control your economy, then the Japanese side is for you. There is a lot of information to digest about the Japanese economy. But it can be fun....GP



Macclan5 -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/7/2020 3:31:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx5058

Which side should I play first in a GC or in a PBEM ?
It seeems many players prefer allies (maybe because they are American?), but not sure why ?

Whould appreciate your views about it, pros and cons of each side.

Thanks.



Yes. The answer is Yes. Play both. It does not matter

The game is so good you will want to learn.

(Disclaimer I am just starting my own IJN vs AI after 4 years)

--

Players prefer the Allies ??

It possibly depends on how scholarly you are ?

I will 'opine' that many many of the games players are probably more 'historically aware' of the details of the Allied side.

Things such as (i) the Order of Battle land forces (ii) ships ( iii) Aircraft types and (iv) the general historical advances and important battles Midway / Guadalcanal / Tarawa / Philippine Sea / Leyte / Okinawa. etc.

"Knowing these things" is not necessary nor will make you a better player - but familiarity is a powerful comfort in a game with a respectable learning curve.





Q-Ball -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/7/2020 4:23:35 PM)

I highly recommend playing BOTH vs. the AI to get your feet wet and see how it works if you're just getting started, and see what challenges each side has

Once you have a little experience vs. AI, probably Allies in your first PBEM; certain aspects are easier to manage



geofflambert -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/7/2020 4:27:22 PM)

Look at it this way. If you're doing the Japanese side properly, you'll spend 4 hours working at it for every one your opponent spends, approximately. So, if you want to play your life away you'll have a larger pool of available opponents.



Sardaukar -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/7/2020 5:36:34 PM)

Japanese economy/production/research can be difficult and mistakes in it very costly.

Allies do not have that sort of problems.



Ambassador -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/7/2020 7:00:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Japanese economy/production/research can be difficult and mistakes in it very costly.

Allies do not have that sort of problems.

I beg to differ. Mistakes are possible with the Allies, for example by letting any LCU upgrade without checking the devices availability, especially with some early war AFV and artillery (mainly Brits & Commonwealth s.l.), and this can severely limit your options and make things difficult.



Kull -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/7/2020 9:11:57 PM)

No he's right. The Japanese can do things in 1941 that make any sort of victory impossible. Especially crashing the economy. Then you can't even really play. That's impossible to do as the Allies. Having to manage the economy AND learn the game? LOL

Edit: You can play as ONLY the US (just let every other Allied unit sit where it is) and still win the game. That qualifies as "orders of magnitude easier". I can't even believe this is a question.



Ambassador -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/8/2020 9:32:21 AM)

I don’t argue the consequences are the same, but costly mistakes ARE possible. Crashing the Japanese economy is done by over expanding it, and all advices for new IJ players is « play conservatively » on this front. As long as you don’t expand too much too fast, small mistakes are no more dire than for the US side.
Off course, if you double all manufacturing plants and drive the economy on a standstill, this is bad, but not more than trying to invade both Oz and India in June ‘42 and splitting KB... but that’s mostly from players trying to get ahistoric Japanese production by gaming the system.

Learning the game, playing against the AI first in a GC, you don’t need to make many expansions of the industry, which means you mostly only have to setup ressource convoys appropriately, and the AI is less efficient with its submarines too.

You can also play as the US alone and do nothing until mid ‘44 and still win by blitzing through the Pacific islands, but this doesn’t make for a fun game either. The only thing which is certain is, in the end, the US will win, so it’s not really a good proof of anything.

Lastly, playing as the Allies in a first GC can be frustrating during six months, because there’s not much you can do, and you can very easily lose important assets (like US carriers)(or see the AI send their own carriers isolated and wonder what fun there is left after sinking the 6th CV in isolated engagements), which could (and has) lead players to shelve the game. Playing as Japan is more entertaining, as there’s more fun in invading all around (with the amphib bonus) and sinking plenty of Allied shipping.



rustysi -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/8/2020 10:58:59 AM)

IMHO, its much easier to begin a CG as the Allies when first learning the game.



Sardaukar -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/8/2020 12:17:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

I don’t argue the consequences are the same, but costly mistakes ARE possible. Crashing the Japanese economy is done by over expanding it, and all advices for new IJ players is « play conservatively » on this front. As long as you don’t expand too much too fast, small mistakes are no more dire than for the US side.
Off course, if you double all manufacturing plants and drive the economy on a standstill, this is bad, but not more than trying to invade both Oz and India in June ‘42 and splitting KB... but that’s mostly from players trying to get ahistoric Japanese production by gaming the system.

Learning the game, playing against the AI first in a GC, you don’t need to make many expansions of the industry, which means you mostly only have to setup ressource convoys appropriately, and the AI is less efficient with its submarines too.

You can also play as the US alone and do nothing until mid ‘44 and still win by blitzing through the Pacific islands, but this doesn’t make for a fun game either. The only thing which is certain is, in the end, the US will win, so it’s not really a good proof of anything.

Lastly, playing as the Allies in a first GC can be frustrating during six months, because there’s not much you can do, and you can very easily lose important assets (like US carriers)(or see the AI send their own carriers isolated and wonder what fun there is left after sinking the 6th CV in isolated engagements), which could (and has) lead players to shelve the game. Playing as Japan is more entertaining, as there’s more fun in invading all around (with the amphib bonus) and sinking plenty of Allied shipping.


One cannot really make "game breaking" mistakes as Allies. With Japan that is even easy.

If you remember to ship fuel to India and Australia, then you are basically set. If one makes mistake with devices, that is annoying but hardly any sort of decisive. Just that some units are sub-optimal, but you will have lot more good units anyway.

Even if Allies lose all CVs in 1942, it is still not fatal, there is plenty of those in pipeline.

With Japan, making mistakes with R&D/production and fuel/oil/supply can easily be fatal for your war effort. Less so vs. AI but definitely vs. Human in PBEM. Also, losing Kido Butai as Japan is almost "game over" when it comes to naval warfare. US supremacy in CVs will mean doom for all island garrisons in that case.

Thus, starting to learn game with Allies is better...unless real masochist. [:D][8D]



Falken -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/8/2020 9:53:01 PM)

I used to play only as Allies, but now that I've played as the IJN for the last several years, even if I'm not that good at it, I can't even imagine playing Allies anymore, and the reason is simple: Detail and Control. For me, once you've learned and can handle economy and R&D, nothing to me is more aggravating then not having the same control as Allies.

I wish that Allies had the same R&D and Economy. That would be so much fun, and it would help balance possibilities. But as it stands now, being IJN is a lot fun, and then, of course, comes late '43 and '44 where it's just painful to realize that you can't win, and the Allies have an over abundance of Fuel, Supply, A/C, Ships/etc, and every turn becomes "how many planes and ships and bases did I just lose today?"



Moltrey -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/8/2020 11:35:39 PM)

Umm. I set myself the restriction of learning to play the Grand Cmpn as Allies only. I figured that way I will only see the opening deployment of Japanese units from the view of the opponent, and thus preserving at least some element of surprise and hidden placement as I learn by play. Using AndyMac's new scenarios 1 and 2 also helps as he has a randomizer in the opening moves the Japanese AI chooses to implement, so you can't count on identical Dec 7th starts each and every time a new game is generated.




Kull -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/9/2020 2:53:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Falken

I used to play only as Allies, but now that I've played as the IJN for the last several years, even if I'm not that good at it, I can't even imagine playing Allies anymore, and the reason is simple: Detail and Control. For me, once you've learned and can handle economy and R&D, nothing to me is more aggravating then not having the same control as Allies.

I wish that Allies had the same R&D and Economy. That would be so much fun, and it would help balance possibilities. But as it stands now, being IJN is a lot fun, and then, of course, comes late '43 and '44 where it's just painful to realize that you can't win, and the Allies have an over abundance of Fuel, Supply, A/C, Ships/etc, and every turn becomes "how many planes and ships and bases did I just lose today?"


You are answering the wrong question. It's not "Which side could be more fun for the veteran AE player?"

It's this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: nukkxx5058

Which side should I play first in a GC or in a PBEM?


Are you seriously advocating that the very FIRST grand campaign of new players should be as Japan? Not just against the AI, but in PBEM too?

This next is for all the new players out there. WitP-AE is massively more detailed than any game you've played before. For those with the patience to see it through, it could become (as it has for many AE veterans) the "Game of your life". Something impossible to perfect, always teaching you new things, and keeping you engaged, year after year.

However, well over 50% of those reading this will be gone by January 1st and most of the rest will disappear soon thereafter. That's a fact, we see it every year. In many cases, it's simply not the "war game" they thought it was, but predominantly an exercise in logistics. But we also see many new players fixating on mods or minutiae, and then diving straight into a Grand Campaign and quickly becoming overwhelmed. At the most basic level, those folks didn't see it as fun, so they dropped it and moved on.

A good way to join that group is to start off with Japan.



Falken -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/9/2020 4:34:44 PM)

You're right Kull.. I miss-read the question. Allies for first timers.



Zorch -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/9/2020 5:08:09 PM)

quote:

Should I play Japan or Allies ?


Yes. You should definitely play as either Japan or the Allies. [:D]



spence -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/9/2020 5:55:26 PM)

I only play Allies because there is absolutely no 'blush on the rose' as far as production/research is concerned. I did all that way back when maps were made of paper and you had to have a room available where pets feared to tread,

Certainly you ought to play the Allies the first time you try a PBEM because mistakes are usually not fatal BUT be aware that the general development of the game allows the Japanese Player to pretty much run rampant for a good six months to a year AND THEN QUIT just as you are starting to get decent fighters/new carriers, etc.

I have to say that in innumerable PBEMs I have only found one opponent who has gone beyond May 1943 (when my previous 'record holder' lost a big carrier battle and quit). With the Japanese (perhaps unrealistically) being able research new planes and build ships that were never built in real life there may be fun to be had in playing Japan in 1945 but I will probably never know. I did play the Japanese in a Uncommon Valor PBEM and can understand how it gets pretty depressing when one starts to think a victory is only losing twice as many planes in a turn as your Allied opponent did (possibly "fixed" in this game).




dasboot1960 -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/9/2020 9:20:23 PM)

verily to the old days Spence. still have all mine. In boxes, except one for hurricanes.

for anything other than the GC, I'd be with either side, but GC as IJ is as far as it gets into the weeds




nukkxx5058 -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/9/2020 9:51:36 PM)

Reading all the answers, that's interesting ! Thanks.
One side question: how long does it take you in average to prepare a full turn (ie. before pressing the "end turn" button, just to give all the orders) and regardless whether it's Allies or Japan ?



dasboot1960 -> RE: Should I play Japan or Allies ? (12/9/2020 10:08:50 PM)

First iteration of anything is always worst. Planning Japanese first time, first time coming to grips with resource logistics, first time through IJ a/c.

first turn the twice i've started as IJ took at least 40 hrs and felt like a hundred, but that includes the logistics kick off, everything. I used Krulls fine example as a sort of cheat sheet/backstop. I'd be a babbling idiot if it weren't for tracker

that's why the allied start is so much 'easier' you have a lot of ships needing routing. some forces you can see have little planning needed. they'll fight more or less in place, a lot are restricted , so that pushes their mission. much of your earliest planning will be short term reactionary. you're just gettin mauled everyday, or know the next ones coming, you and your OB grow together with your logistics.



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