CSG task group and task unit position and transiting (Full Version)

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AdmiralSteve -> CSG task group and task unit position and transiting (12/9/2020 4:14:27 PM)

A bit of a deep question on strategy and tactics. In my attempts of scenario design, I'm running into what I believe is a problem for a large 21st century carrier strike group. If a CSG with as many as 20 vessels operating in a relatively confined area such as the South China Sea, how do military planners decide how close to keep each individual vessel? Secondly, a large group won't be all pulling into Phuket Thailand all at once for a liberty port call so is their a method to the madness in determining how many vessels to place in a restricted status while crew is ashore?

So, in my vain attempt to come up with a decent SCS scenario with a single US Navy CSG, can anyone fathom a guess on how to place a CSG in the region with what will eventually be a hostile China with a Russian naval element tossed in just to complicate things?

Told you it was deep. Just love me.

Thank you all,

Steve




Gunner98 -> RE: CSG task group and task unit position and transiting (12/9/2020 10:05:08 PM)

Steve

I'm no expert but what you describing is a huge number of ships these days. A CSG is typically about 5-7 ships: Carrier, 1-2 Tyco CG, 2-3 DDG-51 and 1-2 SSN. The AOR/AOE will run independently. Lately (in the Atlantic) a NATO ship has often joined a CSG for several months at a time (Norwegian, German or Dutch I believe).

There might be a SAG of a couple ships operating separately
There will probably be an ARG of three ships or more likely an ESG with an ARG and a DDG-51 and/or and LCS

Likely there will be several SSNs working independently and if this is a strike mission one of the SSGNs

So all told, if you max out the CSG you've got 6 surface and 2 SSN, with an AOE (1), ESG (5) and a SAG (2), and say 2 SSNs you could reach your 20 ship target. Add in a second SAG and a few allied ships to the mix and you bounce over that.

Don't know anything about relief schedules I'm afraid.

You may want to look up one of the latest RIMPAC exercises to get an idea as well.

Hope that helps.

B




BeirutDude -> RE: CSG task group and task unit position and transiting (12/9/2020 11:03:50 PM)

So in "Fiery Cross Reef, 2021" I brought the CSG through the Singapore Straits. As Gunner said a modern CSG is not nearly that big. With the DF-21Ds/DF-26s make sure you have a few RIM-161s and RIM-174s on the escorts.




SeaQueen -> RE: CSG task group and task unit position and transiting (12/12/2020 2:06:16 PM)

quote:

A bit of a deep question on strategy and tactics. In my attempts of scenario design, I'm running into what I believe is a problem for a large 21st century carrier strike group. If a CSG with as many as 20 vessels operating in a relatively confined area such as the South China Sea, how do military planners decide how close to keep each individual vessel?


The SCS isn't that confined. There's plenty of space to operate there. 20 vessels would be several CSGs, which in wartime wouldn't be unreasonable. As for the spacing of warships, it depends! Generally, you would cluster the HVUs (i.e. CVNs, LHD/LHAs, CLF) so that their own close in defenses have some overlap and they can benefit from mutual support. Next you want to develop a defense around the HVUs. In order to do that you need to understand what the enemy's capabilities are and how far out can the enemy can employ weapons against them. Then you'd draw a circle around the HVU cluster (clusters?) that is that range. If the bad guys can shoot 100NM then you want to engage and kill them before they get to within 100NM. That circle is called your vital area (VA). The name of the game is to keep stuff out of your vital area.

Next, you want to figure out how you can reasonably engage and destroy the enemy before he enters your VA and can shoot at you. That dictates where you put your fighter CAPs and Hawkeyes, and where you might also choose to detach some CRUDES, FFGs, or LCS and position them further out from the HVUs to expand both your sensing and shooting capability. That area where you can sense the enemy and make decisions about who to engage when is called the classification, identification and engagement area (CIEA). The CIEA is where the fighting should happen. It's also where you should start not just seeing unknown contacts, but identifying them, figuring out what's hostile and deciding who engages what. You want to make this area big, because that gives you time to make decisions and maintain awareness of what's happening. In CMANO/CMO terms, you might also want to start adjusting the firing ranges of some of your ships here, and say things like, "In this area I'm going to engage inbound contacts with missiles, but not fighters, but over here I'm going to engage them with fighters, but not missiles." Then you set up your doctrine settings so that you can make that happen.

Finally, way out there, is going to be the realm where you're just trying to maintain awareness of what's going on. That's your sensing area (SA). This is where you might put drones, or possibly submarines. Depending on the threat, you might also send out MPA. It's probably out on the edge of the capability of radars like Aegis or a APY-9 or APY-2 from a Hawkeye or AWACS and overlaps some. The goal out here is not so much to engage anything as to just maintain awareness so that if it enters the CIEA you have some SA about it and can cue appropriate assets to investigate.

quote:


Secondly, a large group won't be all pulling into Phuket Thailand all at once for a liberty port call so is their a method to the madness in determining how many vessels to place in a restricted status while crew is ashore?


If they're at war, though, they wouldn't be tied up at the pier, they'd be out sailing where it's much harder for enterprising Chinese naval officers to plan strikes against them, specifically because in order to do it they've got to run a gauntlet of fighters, CRUDES, MPA, helicopters, and SAMs. The only ships that would be going back and forth to land in wartime would be the shuttle ships running out where ever they're unrepping and they would need to be protected. Also, submarines and ships who winchestered out would head back to port to be replenished because they can't be replenished at sea. That would be an issue if the conflict went on a long time.




kevinkins -> RE: CSG task group and task unit position and transiting (12/12/2020 5:15:00 PM)

I suppose at times the CSG could be operating with an Amphibious Ready Group which would add more ships to the equation. Spacing of surface ships is an age old question. Other than transiting mid ocean, the spacing is probably driven by the specific operation and the threats involved. I always wondered if the USN has standardized configurations for the CGs and DDGs in relation to the carrier they are supporting. Sort of like a playbook of starting formations in football that can be quickly communicated to the group.




magi -> RE: CSG task group and task unit position and transiting (12/13/2020 5:34:24 AM)

Great post.... really interesting comments ....




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