RE: Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW? (Full Version)

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hottegetthoff -> RE: Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW? (2/25/2021 8:38:46 PM)

In the last game against the AI i found that somehow DDs with no upgrades whatsoever were doing 2 damage each attack to my level 2 subs usually with acceptable supply (of course it went down), in silent mode. Is this how it always was? I remember rushing adv subs as germany to great effect a few months ago.



Chernobyl -> RE: Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW? (2/25/2021 9:36:13 PM)

Supply level makes such a huge impact on naval fights.

As it stands I rarely move my subs in non-silent mode. The main reason isn't even avoiding detection, but because it doesn't use supply. A low supply sub is a soon to be dead sub.



BillRunacre -> RE: Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW? (2/26/2021 6:49:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Hi Bill,

Great patches much appreciated!! Going back to this discussion after looking at the new patch notes I realized somehow I had these stats wrong. Correction:

WW1: AP: 18 NA:3 ND:0 DP: 35
WIE: AP: 20 NA:5 ND:1 DP: 40
WAW: AP: 16 NA:5 ND:1 DP: 40

I see you decided to keep WW1 subs ND at 0 but increased the dive percentage from 25 to 35. Curious why no naval defense? Thanks!


I noticed that some of the other values, e.g. for Destroyers (IIRC) weren't the same either in the WW2 games, but the biggest difference seemed to be the dive percentage which had been drastically lower in WWI.

I'm hoping that this will make the passage into the Atlantic that much easier, and also increase their resilience to attack, which seemed to be the major issues?



Chernobyl -> RE: Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW? (2/26/2021 7:26:35 PM)

Naval defense 0 lets all types of warships gang up on an isolated sub for free. Typically in this game you want to hit the sub with your non-damaging warships first (battleships, cruisers) and then finish with destroyers once the sub has been attacked down to a low supply value. This ensures that the destroyer attacks do high strength damage.

If the sub had defense of 1 or greater, battleships and armored cruisers would take damage for participating. But as of now there's no downside to using dreadnoughts to attack subs.

When a sub dives it teleports to a nearby hex and possibly takes damage (and I think it still loses a supply point). This can save the sub sometimes in edge cases, but it's less effective when the enemy has half their fleet focusing on one sub, because there are plenty of search vessels around. Even if a sub does survive due to diving one or more times during a single turn, it's often going to be destroyed during the next turn because it has low supply/movement points left and enemy warships stand between the sub and escape.

I haven't played the WWII games so I'm not sure how subs are successful in those games.

We can test out to see if higher dive percentage does anything, but in my opinion it probably won't change much.

I was trying to come up with a way to improve the situation and one thing I did was give subs 1 defense and destroyers +1 sub attack. (Could possibly give only upgraded subs this defense bonus). This isn't a perfect fix at all, but it at least makes it costly for dreadnoughts to participate in the feeding frenzy.



Bavre -> RE: Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW? (2/26/2021 8:00:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Naval defense 0 lets all types of warships gang up on an isolated sub for free. Typically in this game you want to hit the sub with your non-damaging warships first (battleships, cruisers) and then finish with destroyers once the sub has been attacked down to a low supply value. This ensures that the destroyer attacks do high strength damage.

If the sub had defense of 1 or greater, battleships and armored cruisers would take damage for participating. But as of now there's no downside to using dreadnoughts to attack subs.

When a sub dives it teleports to a nearby hex and possibly takes damage (and I think it still loses a supply point). This can save the sub sometimes in edge cases, but it's less effective when the enemy has half their fleet focusing on one sub, because there are plenty of search vessels around. Even if a sub does survive due to diving one or more times during a single turn, it's often going to be destroyed during the next turn because it has low supply/movement points left and enemy warships stand between the sub and escape.

I haven't played the WWII games so I'm not sure how subs are successful in those games.

We can test out to see if higher dive percentage does anything, but in my opinion it probably won't change much.

I was trying to come up with a way to improve the situation and one thing I did was give subs 1 defense and destroyers +1 sub attack. (Could possibly give only upgraded subs this defense bonus). This isn't a perfect fix at all, but it at least makes it costly for dreadnoughts to participate in the feeding frenzy.


Yes, pretty much that. Ideally I think it should be balanced in a way that say 3-4 DDs are a serious threat to a lone sub, but a battlefleet with 2 DDs is not.
Btw, contrary to the threads title, I think subs are really strong in this game, just not in their intended role [:D].
Have a skilled Naval player in charge of CP and thanks to the subs super stealth scouting ability the Royal Navy has to run and hide from the Hochseeflotte the first few turns.



Tanaka -> RE: Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW? (2/26/2021 10:56:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Hi Bill,

Great patches much appreciated!! Going back to this discussion after looking at the new patch notes I realized somehow I had these stats wrong. Correction:

WW1: AP: 18 NA:3 ND:0 DP: 35
WIE: AP: 20 NA:5 ND:1 DP: 40
WAW: AP: 16 NA:5 ND:1 DP: 40

I see you decided to keep WW1 subs ND at 0 but increased the dive percentage from 25 to 35. Curious why no naval defense? Thanks!


I noticed that some of the other values, e.g. for Destroyers (IIRC) weren't the same either in the WW2 games, but the biggest difference seemed to be the dive percentage which had been drastically lower in WWI.

I'm hoping that this will make the passage into the Atlantic that much easier, and also increase their resilience to attack, which seemed to be the major issues?



Interesting did not think about differences in destroyers will have to check that out. And yes resilience to attack is the major issue so hopefully this helps. I certainly understand incremental changes one step at a time! Thanks for responding!



shri -> RE: Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW? (2/27/2021 4:54:53 AM)

I know exactly the player you meant to tag. [:D]




Tanaka -> RE: Why are subs so much worse in this game vs WIE and WAW? (2/27/2021 6:07:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

Naval defense 0 lets all types of warships gang up on an isolated sub for free. Typically in this game you want to hit the sub with your non-damaging warships first (battleships, cruisers) and then finish with destroyers once the sub has been attacked down to a low supply value. This ensures that the destroyer attacks do high strength damage.

If the sub had defense of 1 or greater, battleships and armored cruisers would take damage for participating. But as of now there's no downside to using dreadnoughts to attack subs.

When a sub dives it teleports to a nearby hex and possibly takes damage (and I think it still loses a supply point). This can save the sub sometimes in edge cases, but it's less effective when the enemy has half their fleet focusing on one sub, because there are plenty of search vessels around. Even if a sub does survive due to diving one or more times during a single turn, it's often going to be destroyed during the next turn because it has low supply/movement points left and enemy warships stand between the sub and escape.

I haven't played the WWII games so I'm not sure how subs are successful in those games.

We can test out to see if higher dive percentage does anything, but in my opinion it probably won't change much.

I was trying to come up with a way to improve the situation and one thing I did was give subs 1 defense and destroyers +1 sub attack. (Could possibly give only upgraded subs this defense bonus). This isn't a perfect fix at all, but it at least makes it costly for dreadnoughts to participate in the feeding frenzy.


Oh I completely agree. This is the biggest issue in this game with subs vs WIE/WAW. Especially when you are confined to a much smaller roaming distance being attacked by the giant allied fleet swarm of death.

I don't think capital ships should even be able to attack subs at all but a sub naval defense of 1 in this game like the others would really help if this is never changed.



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