Re: Norway (Full Version)

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Flaviusx -> Re: Norway (12/16/2020 3:24:46 PM)

It's a bit too easy for the Germans to take this on turn 2. A single division backed up by shore bombardment and the Luftwaffe can do it.

I think maybe the initial German landing craft should be set to 0.

Norway is a real prize now and the Germans should be made to work for it a little more than this.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 3:37:21 PM)

Well here is the deal. If you do that the the Allies can ship land units to Narvik with their HUGE navy and block access that winter to much needed Iron Ore.

Then they can ship units to Bergen, and Trondheim. What else to the French have to do but drink wine, eat bread, and sit on your iron ore till May 1940.





[image]local://upfiles/45679/3CEB11D38631408384381EFCB518ECF9.jpg[/image]



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 3:38:01 PM)

If you wait till April/May 1940 you can capture both at the same time. Or even till after the French are done.



Flaviusx -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 3:43:24 PM)

I must be missing something here but I don't see how the allies can respond like that. Norway is conquered at the end of turn 2 by the Germans. In order to get ashore Narvik, the allies have to amphibiously land on their turn 2 because of this change of ownership. And they start with zero landing craft.



Flaviusx -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 3:47:23 PM)

It's weird because this surrender issue is handled differently between minors and majors.

Major powers get a chance to respond on their own turn before determining surrender. (I actually managed to retake Paris in my current game and hold off surrender for one turn this way.)

Minor powers are knocked out immediately. No chance to respond.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 3:54:23 PM)

You are right, I forgot. Then they need to plant a fleet outside Oslo turn 2. French preferred.



Flaviusx -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 3:59:32 PM)

They would have to position the fleet on their turn 1, and therefore it will be British.

If they wait until turn 2 it is already too late.

Still seems to me the easiest solution is to make Germany buy landing craft in preparation for Weserebung instead of just handing it to them at the start.



malkarma -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 4:55:15 PM)

Also, if they place the fleet close to Oslo, they can get trapped in the new minefields.



Lascar -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 5:15:28 PM)

The Germans took two months (4 turns) to secure Norway. It should not be a cakewalk allowing the Germans to take it in one turn.
It was a hard fight for the Germans and they lost a good percentage of their surface fleet doing it. The Norwegian army never has a chance to fight along the Allies.

On the other hand, if the Allies decide to invade Norway it is highly unlikely they can take it in one turn and then the Germans have the use
of the Norwegian army to fight them off.



malkarma -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 5:59:30 PM)

Maybe the solution wil be transform Narvik or any other city in a morale city. This will increase the difficulty of conquer Norway.



Lascar -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 7:27:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: malkarma

Maybe the solution wil be transform Narvik or any other city in a morale city. This will increase the difficulty of conquer Norway.

Narvik would be the best choice and it would be a simple solution to balancing the relative risks that the Germans and Allies must weigh when deciding whether or not to invade Norway.



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Re: Norway (12/16/2020 9:19:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lascar


quote:

ORIGINAL: malkarma

Maybe the solution wil be transform Narvik or any other city in a morale city. This will increase the difficulty of conquer Norway.

Narvik would be the best choice and it would be a simple solution to balancing the relative risks that the Germans and Allies must weigh when deciding whether or not to invade Norway.


Maybe *too* hard for the Germans... Bergen may be a good compromise and had a larger population



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Re: Norway (12/17/2020 2:29:46 AM)

I was considering some of these ideas.

But the simplest solution is just to beef up the Norwegian troop in Oslo so a single division can't take them out.



ago1000 -> RE: Re: Norway (12/17/2020 2:35:48 AM)

deleted



OxfordGuy3 -> RE: Re: Norway (12/17/2020 7:03:58 AM)

Sounds reasonable, still makes it possible for the Germans to conquer Norway, but only if they commit more resources to the operation (so not turn 2).



ago1000 -> RE: Re: Norway (12/17/2020 11:55:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

If you do that the the Allies can ship land units to Narvik with their HUGE navy and block access that winter to much needed Iron Ore.


+1
and plus 1 patrol group and 48 Merchant ships
Forgot to add: It will impact the garrison arrival in Narvik.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Re: Norway (12/17/2020 2:42:18 PM)

I'll think about what to do. I gave the Germans 10 landing craft because they did dump off troops in Denmark. I'll see what is most reasonable.



sillyflower -> RE: Re: Norway (12/17/2020 3:10:54 PM)

Current situation of G having more amphib capacity than UK is a little strange unless you go down this alt-hist route:

"Third Reich Victorious: Alternate Decisions of World War II (ed. Peter G. Tsouras), q.v.

Dudley, Wade. "The Little Admiral, 1939: Hitler and the German Navy"
Divergence: 1914 CE
What if: Adolf Hitler joined the Kriegsmarine at the outbreak of World War I, subsequently rising to become a naval officer steeped in Anglophobia because of the death of shipmates at Jutland.
Summary: How Nazi Germany built up its naval forces and on the outbreak of World War II was ready to destroy the British Home Fleet, isolate Britain from all external aid, and eventually invade England after preventing the BEF from escaping Dunkirk".

This book was recommended to me by Michael Claraday (the above is pasted from his email) but I haven't read it yet.



MagicMissile -> RE: Re: Norway (12/17/2020 3:39:42 PM)

Well nowadays with no Netherlands Germany can easily use an arm corps to take copenhagen you dont need the LC for that any longer. Alternatively you force Germany to build a LC and invade in the spring just like in history. So i would say it could easily be removed. The main counterargument I guess could be when do we limit options too much? If we remove it the game will as it stands right now play out just history. Not necessarily a bad thing but there opinions might vary.

/MM



battlevonwar -> RE: Re: Norway (12/17/2020 8:43:51 PM)

Norway actual in game value:

25 Iron Ore Shipped per turn? need roughly what 5-6 Divisions spread around to protect it? That's about 400 Production to defend it? You need the 10 Amphib Points to take it... If the British Intervene and damage a few KG vessels it could cost you 150-250 in Air and Naval Assets to heal up? The 1 Resource boost you get from it will be roughly what 3 Production per turn for long as the game lasts...

Norway is valuable if you play a long game but it can be made to be an issue in a short game. The British can disembark a Unit for Narvik right away to take it if the Germans go for it? Just the Germans aren't historically losing most of their DDs as they did in the war ... (I am guessing 400 with no sunk vessels) with no threat to your ore is it worth it? I would say that depends if you use it as a base to raid USSR pipeline and play the long game?



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