Suggestion for Subs (Full Version)

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canuckgamer -> Suggestion for Subs (12/16/2020 6:23:26 PM)

In WWII subs were mainly used to destroy the enemy merchant fleet. U-boats in the Battle of the Atlantic and American subs in the Pacific destroying the Japanese merchant fleet. They were also used as a forward picket line to warn of enemy fleets and if they were lucky enough to be in position pick off a surface ship. In late 1944 an American sub, the Archerfish sank the Japanese super carrier Shinano when she was stationed to disrupt Japanese shipping. She happened to be in the right place at the right time.

My suggestion to make subs more realistic in SCWIE and SCWAW is that they should not be allowed to attack if they have moved. They can only attack if an enemy naval unit moves adjacent to it or if an enemy naval unit starts the turn adjacent.




DeriKuk -> RE: Suggestion for Subs (12/16/2020 7:48:26 PM)

YES! No sane sub commander will choose to take on a sub-hunter like a DD. This game would be far better if the number of convoy points lost to subs could be seriously increased, BUT then decreased through the proximity and density of escort/anti-submarine assets like DDs, CVEs, CLs and Maritime Bombers, and the level of their ASW tech.



The Land -> RE: Suggestion for Subs (12/16/2020 8:48:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: canuckgamer

In WWII subs were mainly used to destroy the enemy merchant fleet. U-boats in the Battle of the Atlantic and American subs in the Pacific destroying the Japanese merchant fleet. They were also used as a forward picket line to warn of enemy fleets and if they were lucky enough to be in position pick off a surface ship. In late 1944 an American sub, the Archerfish sank the Japanese super carrier Shinano when she was stationed to disrupt Japanese shipping. She happened to be in the right place at the right time.

My suggestion to make subs more realistic in SCWIE and SCWAW is that they should not be allowed to attack if they have moved. They can only attack if an enemy naval unit moves adjacent to it or if an enemy naval unit starts the turn adjacent.




It's a tough one. In my view BOTH sides of the Battle of the Atlantic are overpowered. Which probably sounds weird, but the problem is concentration of force. The optimal Allied strategy is to concentrate all your destroyers and submarines, and then pick off one sub per turn - using your own subs to do the scouting for the destroyers to then move in and kill. Equally, the subs are capable of ganging up on destroyers, carriers, battleships, anything that floats.

Players who can concentrate force do very well - a valid approach to simulating land warfare, but ahistorical for naval war.

I don't really know how to address this without abandoning the whole move-units-round-map paradigm.







Hubert Cater -> RE: Suggestion for Subs (12/17/2020 1:13:49 PM)

Just a quick FYI on what is already currently in game, subs that move first before attacking have their effectiveness in the attack reduced by 50%, e.g. defender losses are cut in half from what they normally would be if the sub did not move before attacking.



The Land -> RE: Suggestion for Subs (12/17/2020 1:37:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Just a quick FYI on what is already currently in game, subs that move first before attacking have their effectiveness in the attack reduced by 50%, e.g. defender losses are cut in half from what they normally would be if the sub did not move before attacking.


Hi Hubert - when was that introduced? Are you sure it's working, I had two subs have 2:4 or 2:5 damage projections against Allied carriers the other day, after moving. They were level 2 and in good supply, but really do subs have Carrier Attack 8?

Edit= ok, they should have Carrier Attack 7 at level 2 tech. So 2:4 sort of makes sense even if damage is halved.



The Land -> RE: Suggestion for Subs (12/17/2020 1:48:54 PM)

That prompts me to have another thought:

At present, tech scales Attack values for subs and Attack and Defence values for surface ships (apart from carriers).

To my mind it would make more sense if:
- Subs also scaled their Defence value somewhat (as well as their Dive % chance) with increased tech, possibly at the expense of becoming less dive-y
- Subs Attack values were scaled down to 0.5 increase per level, with a similar reduction in ships' Defence tech increments.
- Subs no longer spotted other subs

Overall this would decrease the value of concentration of force without upsetting anything too dramatically...



Hubert Cater -> RE: Suggestion for Subs (12/17/2020 6:04:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Just a quick FYI on what is already currently in game, subs that move first before attacking have their effectiveness in the attack reduced by 50%, e.g. defender losses are cut in half from what they normally would be if the sub did not move before attacking.


Hi Hubert - when was that introduced? Are you sure it's working, I had two subs have 2:4 or 2:5 damage projections against Allied carriers the other day, after moving. They were level 2 and in good supply, but really do subs have Carrier Attack 8?

Edit= ok, they should have Carrier Attack 7 at level 2 tech. So 2:4 sort of makes sense even if damage is halved.



It has been this way since I believe Strategic Command 2 when things were still over at Battlefront. I believe we introduced it around the Assault on Democracy expansion, something like that.



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