Frustration (Full Version)

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Sieppo -> Frustration (12/18/2020 12:20:14 PM)

Round 146 on my newest game. Extreme difficulty with nemesis and wildlife. Epic research. Neighbor (major) attacked me in the beginning but got lucky and got light tanks and smashed him with no difficulty. Nemesis declared war on me but then wondered where he lingers and found out he got completely destroyed by a minor with militia. One opponent left but whom I know I can destroy easily. I have had to manage the whole game with geysers and one captured set of solar panels.

[image]local://upfiles/43604/0297C6E11FF1489A88DF8CA33B719FA3.jpg[/image]

I don't know if it's the beta I'm playing with but the game feels broken at times [8|]. Not that I couldn't start a new game but I put possibly a 50-60 hours on this scenario and was waiting for an epic end war with the nemesis..

EDIT: I have a feeling (I've said it before) developed after winning each game I've played on any difficulty (mostly hard and extreme), that the AI is overwhelmed by the difficulty of the game and always finds some way to collapse himself even when basically cheating.



kicktothehead -> RE: Frustration (12/18/2020 1:08:58 PM)

Weird I am opposite - I am on game 4 (each turn went over 100 turns) and I am on turn 152 right now.

All the major AI's are still there - I've had great diplomacy with 2 of them and I am moving my front to attack the other now.
They all destroyed the wildlife and the minor regimes - they even moved into my territory to set up cities after taking out roaming wildlife which captured some of my territory.
They keep slowly grinding my borders back so now I need to go on the offensive.



Sieppo -> RE: Frustration (12/18/2020 1:17:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kicktothehead

Weird I am opposite - I am on game 4 (each turn went over 100 turns) and I am on turn 152 right now.

All the major AI's are still there - I've had great diplomacy with 2 of them and I am moving my front to attack the other now.
They all destroyed the wildlife and the minor regimes - they even moved into my territory to set up cities after taking out roaming wildlife which captured some of my territory.
They keep slowly grinding my borders back so now I need to go on the offensive.



Damn, sounds great :)!



dycu -> RE: Frustration (12/18/2020 6:20:32 PM)

Maybe you're just too good :P



Sieppo -> RE: Frustration (12/19/2020 2:01:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dycu

Maybe you're just too good :P


Haha just seen too many majors just declare war and totally collapse without me doing much to help (and this time the NEMESIS) [:D] . I'd like to see them a bit stronger and more aggressive. And that energy trap should somehow be resolved so that it is not entirely based on luck in games where you want the tech experience to be a little longer.



zgrssd -> RE: Frustration (12/19/2020 2:29:34 PM)

I do not start below TL4 right now.
For exactly this reason.

I realy think Vic should just make the Solar Panel a starter Tech and cut it's poweroutput by 10.



Sieppo -> RE: Frustration (12/19/2020 2:38:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

I realy think Vic should just make the Solar Panel a starter Tech and cut it's poweroutput by 10.


Certainly will get my vote :D..



Sieppo -> RE: Frustration (12/19/2020 2:44:17 PM)

Another solution would maybe be some very low tech furnace that could produce steam and thus electricity with a huge amount of some fuel. It would be bad but at least there's be some solution with bad tech luck.



eddieballgame -> RE: Frustration (12/19/2020 5:19:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

I do not start below TL4 right now.
For exactly this reason.

I realy think Vic should just make the Solar Panel a starter Tech and cut it's poweroutput by 10.


Even though I prefer starting on 'Tech Level 3' (never, again never, have not got Power Plant or Solar Panel), the option to start with Solar Panels is interesting.
Maybe an option to prioritize/weight your choices via a selection process.

Not sure I would like lowering the 'out put', however, but more options are always a good thing.

I would like to see a lower starting Tech Level than 3.



Daza99 -> RE: Frustration (12/19/2020 7:24:04 PM)

What would be nice is was an option in setup for a new game where you among the usual settings be able to specifically choose what techs you start with (popup window you tick the techs you want to start- limited to x number of techs) and perhaps some other options such as what tech level the majors have etc. And on top of all that be able to save these settings as a preset you can load for next time. Some games give you points to spend for what you want to start with and you can choose negative ones to give yourself a little more points to spend. The only snag for this idea is you don't know what planet you are going to end up with or you re-roll to have something that will be close enough to make use of the techs you chose.

Yes we can have harder starts with what mode you want to start with like nemesis, but these could be additions on top of that.

Imagine being able to share these presets for others to download and drop the save into the mod folder or another specific folder where they will appear in the game setup settings, so a player might configure something as a community challenge. And taking this one step further it would be great if we also could save a planet setup this way too and in the same way on the screen where you choose a planet type we get to choose Custom and then a list of preset files appear and we can select a preset planet from a drop down list or whatever.

In total a player could kind of design a scenario that all players could get (from the forum or/and steam workshop)and play, and there could be an official scenario competition; forum leader-board for one where you post a screenshot of how many rounds it took to win it or whatever objective is the goal to 'win' the competition. Alternatively instead there could be a Scenario creator chosen from the main menu where you tick box everything, starting tech, fauna inc planet features etc, everything and again be able to save and then be able load it from the main menu (or where appropriate). This also allows players to set a very easy or very hard scenario for themselves to play and even have a randomize everything initially and then you can tweak it.



DTurtle -> RE: Frustration (12/19/2020 7:42:08 PM)

What is the problem here? If you want to discover a tech, invest more in discovery and less in research. Numerous times I've gone ahead and invested 70-80% in discovery until I got the tech I wanted.



KarisFraMauro -> RE: Frustration (12/19/2020 9:43:07 PM)

Ah yes, many has been the time I've desperately gone scurrying after geysers and such while crossing my fingers that next turn I'll finally be able to generate my own power... All part of the fun.

Speaking of AI cheating, I've been wondering how this game compares to something like Civilization in that respect. I don't have enough experience under my belt to draw my own conclusions yet. It always ticks me off how blatant certain 4x games are with computer opponents though. Still hold a grudge against Civ III for having a spy steal democracy from me, AND build the statue of liberty in the exact same turn, while human players are forced to wait at least one turn before building the associated wonder for a tech. Always got on my nerves how I'd micromanage libraries and universities and specialists and resources and on and on while the computer is basically just "AI tech level = human tech level + difficulty". Had to get that off my chest, heh.

Well even if it does eventually reach a point with this game where the computer gets irksome that's what multiplayer is for. Although given how many turns a game can take I'm intrigued as to how it would unfold in a practical sense.



eddieballgame -> RE: Frustration (12/20/2020 1:06:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Daza99

What would be nice is was an option in setup for a new game where you among the usual settings be able to specifically choose what techs you start with (popup window you tick the techs you want to start- limited to x number of techs) and perhaps some other options such as what tech level the majors have etc. And on top of all that be able to save these settings as a preset you can load for next time. Some games give you points to spend for what you want to start with and you can choose negative ones to give yourself a little more points to spend. The only snag for this idea is you don't know what planet you are going to end up with or you re-roll to have something that will be close enough to make use of the techs you chose.

Yes we can have harder starts with what mode you want to start with like nemesis, but these could be additions on top of that.

Imagine being able to share these presets for others to download and drop the save into the mod folder or another specific folder where they will appear in the game setup settings, so a player might configure something as a community challenge. And taking this one step further it would be great if we also could save a planet setup this way too and in the same way on the screen where you choose a planet type we get to choose Custom and then a list of preset files appear and we can select a preset planet from a drop down list or whatever.

In total a player could kind of design a scenario that all players could get (from the forum or/and steam workshop)and play, and there could be an official scenario competition; forum leader-board for one where you post a screenshot of how many rounds it took to win it or whatever objective is the goal to 'win' the competition. Alternatively instead there could be a Scenario creator chosen from the main menu where you tick box everything, starting tech, fauna inc planet features etc, everything and again be able to save and then be able load it from the main menu (or where appropriate). This also allows players to set a very easy or very hard scenario for themselves to play and even have a randomize everything initially and then you can tweak it.


Excellent ideas.



eddieballgame -> RE: Frustration (12/20/2020 1:11:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle

What is the problem here? If you want to discover a tech, invest more in discovery and less in research. Numerous times I've gone ahead and invested 70-80% in discovery until I got the tech I wanted.


This appears to be a very reliable method.
I usually go 90-100% very early & will modify my research % speed based on what I am getting.
The one tech that appears to be the hardest one for me to get is 'Physical Storage'. [:)]



zgrssd -> RE: Frustration (12/20/2020 2:31:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Another solution would maybe be some very low tech furnace that could produce steam and thus electricity with a huge amount of some fuel. It would be bad but at least there's be some solution with bad tech luck.

If it is a fuel burner that would make it useless on any planet with limited Fuel supplies.

That solar panels do not need any input resource makes them universally usefull.



Sieppo -> RE: Frustration (12/20/2020 3:16:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Another solution would maybe be some very low tech furnace that could produce steam and thus electricity with a huge amount of some fuel. It would be bad but at least there's be some solution with bad tech luck.

If it is a fuel burner that would make it useless on any planet with limited Fuel supplies.

That solar panels do not need any input resource makes them universally usefull.


My train of thought was that you'd be able to create bio fuel and thus the only thing needed would be water that is available everywhere.



Sieppo -> RE: Frustration (12/20/2020 3:17:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eddieballgame


quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle

What is the problem here? If you want to discover a tech, invest more in discovery and less in research. Numerous times I've gone ahead and invested 70-80% in discovery until I got the tech I wanted.


This appears to be a very reliable method.
I usually go 90-100% very early & will modify my research % speed based on what I am getting.
The one tech that appears to be the hardest one for me to get is 'Physical Storage'. [:)]



I think I even had that.. Any way started a new wild life nemesis extreme game now, got power plant in the start and fighting crabs [:D]..



zgrssd -> RE: Frustration (12/21/2020 12:12:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sieppo

Another solution would maybe be some very low tech furnace that could produce steam and thus electricity with a huge amount of some fuel. It would be bad but at least there's be some solution with bad tech luck.

If it is a fuel burner that would make it useless on any planet with limited Fuel supplies.

That solar panels do not need any input resource makes them universally usefull.


My train of thought was that you'd be able to create bio fuel and thus the only thing needed would be water that is available everywhere.

That conversion is not quite how it works:
- you will need Workers to get the Water
- you will need Workers, Water and possibly Electricity to run the (Hydroponics) Farm
- then you will again need Workers, Food and possibly Electricity to run the Biofuel Plant
- then Workers and Fuel to run power production
It is a 4 step process to turn water into Electricity. With 1-2 of them also needing energy to run - meaning if energy is cut for any time the whole process grinds to a halt and can not be restarted.
And a lot of worker requireemnts, meaning it lacks granularity for small cases

One of the rules for designing a game economy is: Never have a building need the resources that it produces. Like how you do not need metal for a metal mine.
If you do not follow that rule, player can easily end up in a unrecoverable death lock/spiral.



Clux -> RE: Frustration (12/21/2020 5:32:09 PM)

If you want the AI to survive longer, don't make critters too big/hard to kill and try to generate a earth like planet so majors have an easy time conquering farmers



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