RE: Balance Thread (Full Version)

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ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/5/2021 8:54:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

He planned out his entrenchment and funneled me into his kill zone.


See my current PBEM:

May 10th, 1940 - I have invaded Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg in only one turn.
May 24th, 1940 - bad weather so I did not move except few air units.

But look at this map:
1. If these French troops retreat, they have room to do so.
2. So, in fact, I am going to lose all my operation points pushing French units just to be caught by those British units which I assume to be armored or mechanized units. I will also lose all my supply trucks to maximize my efforts.
3. The air opposition is very strong in terms of fighters. I wonder if I will even fly my bombers given the expected losses.

Some advices?

[image]local://upfiles/46661/BC3827857B3944F9B3C8F943E8F7BB28.jpg[/image]



sillyflower -> RE: Balance Thread (1/6/2021 3:56:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Some advices?

[image]local://upfiles/46661/BC3827857B3944F9B3C8F943E8F7BB28.jpg[/image]


Surrender now before you lose the flower of your youth?

Best wishes

Your humble opponent



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Balance Thread (1/6/2021 9:00:37 PM)

A suggestion was made to limit supply trucks totals by Hadros. Which I do think is a good idea.
I also notice the scaling for technology is off for infantry vs tanks later in the war. Tanks scale much higher.

We want to keep a well balanced game will 1944 to allow a flow to happen.

This is my 4th set of games with Hadros and I am noticing a pattern where the Allies seem to do better regardless of how well the Germans do. What it seems like to me that till 1942 things are about right but after 1942 the Axis can't handle the punishment.



battlevonwar -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 6:13:25 PM)

Alvaro,

Production is too high for the Allies by late '42-'43 and '44... The Axis have to take losses they cannot afford the Allies just have to bleed them and this becomes more like WW1 and less like WW2. Anti-Tank is pretty useless, later in the game perhaps giving it a bonus?




AlvaroSousa -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 6:53:43 PM)

The production for the Allies is correct.
The production for the Axis is too low late in the war.

I do think the late war armor packs too much power.

And yes the Axis are taking a lot of losses.

I'm working on something that I am hoping to have ready for Friday Beta testing.

No one answered my how many tanks and mech do you build question.



squatter -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 7:23:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Alvaro,

Production is too high for the Allies by late '42-'43 and '44... The Axis have to take losses they cannot afford the Allies just have to bleed them and this becomes more like WW1 and less like WW2. Anti-Tank is pretty useless, later in the game perhaps giving it a bonus?




I agree with this.

UK production in the early war allows deployment of a serious ground army by 1941.

I also think the Canadians can field far too big a force far too early - in the game you can have three inf corps and and army hq before the end of 40. Canada wasn't fielding this size force in Europe until 43.




ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 8:09:19 PM)

Okay I have made the mistake to leave two fighters groups in full mission mode to help defend my lines.
They are now at 13/20 and 12/20 in just a single turn.

Next turn, here is my line. The ant tactic is back.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/38521C99DFB8420EB1851DF8930EC9BC.jpg[/image]



ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 8:10:46 PM)

One French counter attack last turn. And still UK units ready for the next kill.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/3B2DD3E394A045699117FDC1CE89D8F9.jpg[/image]



ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 8:24:17 PM)

@Alvaro - My suggestions for a better French campaign.

Air units:
1. Reduce the based experience of the French air units to 40% (like Belgium and Netherlands) or better at 35% so that the more they loss, the more they are bad. French air force had not proven to be very good during this campaign. Right now they are at 50% whereas all their planes were outclassed by BF-109E.

2. Reduce the experience of the four already deployed French air units to 40%.

3. Reduce the experience of all already deployed British air units to 40%. They will improve later with the reinforcement of their units since their based experience is still at 50%. Hurricane vs Spitfire.

4. Increase the experience of IV Jagdkorps and I Jagdkorps air units to 70% just like the II Jagdkorps and the III Jagdkorps air units.

I want to see a little air superiority of the German units during the Battle of France.

Land units:
1. Stop the micro management of switching the Magine line units that have an experience of 50% for no reason. The best French army was in Belgium. Put the same experience for all French land units already deployed on the map.

2. I don't have the feeling of the Panzer breakthrough since there are plenty of French corps certainly in hold mode and fed with plenty of trucks. So, either you divide French production by two, either you put all French units at 30% based experience just like the USSR during the happy times of the first weeks of Barbarossa. Or, you are reducing the French logistics points to have less units.

3. And if you decide to lower the based experience of French units to 30%, do so also for all the French land units deployed (North Africa, Syria included of course).

The ant tactic is consuming my operation points and my trucks. And historically the French were incapable of building any counter attack such as the above one.

Thanks



Flaviusx -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 8:55:58 PM)

Absolutely none of these proposed French changes are necessary. You should have France in the bag by the end of July based on what I see here, and even with some mistakes you have made. (Bypassing Lille?)

Contrary to Battlevonwar's propaganda, the allies are not that strong in the West and can be beaten fairly easily.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 9:01:32 PM)

France is fine. Even I can take them out by August. Hadros players better than I do and he takes them out usually by late June or July.

France is reasonable enough in range of dates it falls so it's not too early and not too late between skills players.

I have spoken and this is the way.



ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 9:02:58 PM)

I bypass Lille because the odds were too bad to attack it without losing all my PzGrp efficiency.



battlevonwar -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 9:07:21 PM)

Depends who is in the driver seat... (also, how long you are willing to wait)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Absolutely none of these proposed French changes are necessary. You should have France in the bag by the end of July based on what I see here, and even with some mistakes you have made. (Bypassing Lille?)

Contrary to Battlevonwar's propaganda, the allies are not that strong in the West and can be beaten fairly easily.




ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 9:25:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

France is fine. Even I can take them out by August. Hadros players better than I do and he takes them out usually by late June or July.

France is reasonable enough in range of dates it falls so it's not too early and not too late between skills players.

I have spoken and this is the way.


But now with the new Belgium rule, I have started May 10th, 1940 and it was cool. My concern is just my air casualties.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/82D96210A45C4E73AF95050E93582A87.jpg[/image]



ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 9:37:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Absolutely none of these proposed French changes are necessary. You should have France in the bag by the end of July based on what I see here, and even with some mistakes you have made. (Bypassing Lille?)

Contrary to Battlevonwar's propaganda, the allies are not that strong in the West and can be beaten fairly easily.


Historically, the French's armistice came into effect on June 22th, 1940. So I am trying to copy the historical pace.
End of July is one month beyond my schedule.

Here is the situation after playing my turn. Will see the outcome and how many losses I am taking by these UK units...

[image]local://upfiles/46661/D22016E8CFF14820A599098E8611CE6C.jpg[/image]



ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 9:44:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

France is fine. Even I can take them out by August. Hadros players better than I do and he takes them out usually by late June or July.

France is reasonable enough in range of dates it falls so it's not too early and not too late between skills players.

I have spoken and this is the way.


Do you find normal that me, ncc1701e, as Allies I can inflict such losses to the German army in another PBEM?
And this is just with the French land army without the help of UK land units.

We are in end of August 1940 and Rouen and Paris are still mine.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/D0784A61EAB64F0592BE380130B9530A.jpg[/image]



Flaviusx -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 9:54:35 PM)

You are not going to get a late June surrender on France against any kind of competent allied player. So forget that. Human allied players aren't going to be as stupid as the historical ones.

As things currently stand, you can expect to wrap it up in late July or early August. This is fine. If you neuter the French the way you are proposing it will have all sorts of bad knockdown effects on the game.

Leave France alone. This is not where the game needs tweaks.



squatter -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 10:20:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You are not going to get a late June surrender on France against any kind of competent allied player. So forget that. Human allied players aren't going to be as stupid as the historical ones.

As things currently stand, you can expect to wrap it up in late July or early August. This is fine. If you neuter the French the way you are proposing it will have all sorts of bad knockdown effects on the game.

Leave France alone. This is not where the game needs tweaks.



I agree France is well balanced as it is.

The one thing I would say is that any experienced player will rotate all the more experienced units out of N Africa/Syria/Maginot line by the time of Summer 40. Why not save everyone the bother and make all French ground units the same experience so you don't need to go through the motions?



Harrybanana -> RE: Balance Thread (1/7/2021 11:24:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

France is fine. Even I can take them out by August. Hadros players better than I do and he takes them out usually by late June or July.

France is reasonable enough in range of dates it falls so it's not too early and not too late between skills players.

I have spoken and this is the way.


But now with the new Belgium rule, I have started May 10th, 1940 and it was cool. My concern is just my air casualties.

[image]local://upfiles/46661/82D96210A45C4E73AF95050E93582A87.jpg[/image]


Assuming you lost only 4 air points in Poland you have destroyed 95 British, French and Belgian air point against 75 German losses. That isn't bad. But If you had built an extra fighter (so that you had a total of 5 to match against the 5 British and French) instead of 2 extra ground attack, you would have done even better.



malkarma -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 1:14:27 PM)

Agree. If you want air superiority, build fighters. You canīt to maintain air superiority with air 4 units against 5 or 6 (if the UK built an extra figther).



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 1:31:16 PM)

If memory serves the Axis lost as many aircraft as the Allies in the battle of France.



ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 2:44:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

If memory serves the Axis lost as many aircraft as the Allies in the battle of France.


Thanks God, I did not fly much so far. Thus, I was able to limit my air losses.



ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 2:45:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: malkarma

Agree. If you want air superiority, build fighters. You canīt to maintain air superiority with air 4 units against 5 or 6 (if the UK built an extra figther).


Back to Excel then. I need to check how to add an air unit of 180 build days without impacting my Panzer groups and before May 1940.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 3:03:38 PM)

Air planes repair at 40% cost and no manpower BTW



ncc1701e -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 3:12:43 PM)

Yes thanks, but I need to sacrifice a mech if I want an air unit. Arghh. [:D]

And, sorry, you said you will not touch France. But, having to switch units from the Maginot line to have units at 50% in Belgium. Why not put them directly in Belgium?
This is a boring process to do each game imo.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 3:17:14 PM)

I will take a look at that.



kennonlightfoot -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 3:52:13 PM)

quote:

The production for the Allies is correct.
The production for the Axis is too low late in the war.


I am not sure the Axis problem is production in 43/44 but the other limiting factors (manpower and logistics). I haven't gotten to that point in my 9.1 version games so I can't be sure if it is still as limiting as is was in earlier versions or not. But in my earlier version games I usually ran out of manpower (and I think logistics) before I ran out of production. I found the German sitting around churning out beach fortifications and AA guns because they didn't have the manpower and logistics points to do anything else. The AA help but the beach fortifications were of limited use since the Germans could produce enough infantry to occupy them. I also ended up sending a lot of German PP to allies since they had manpower and logistics to build. But they aren't good for the long run since their armies disappear as those countries get over run.



AlvaroSousa -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 5:38:01 PM)

I mainly have a manpower issue in 1942 but that is realistic. I made some changes to the next beta due today that hopefully fixes some of this stuff. We go in small doses.



battlevonwar -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 5:43:03 PM)

I run out of manpower and oil as Axis bigtime in '43 and I think everyone does if you're fighting a lot. You shouldn't have much of any to spare.



Flaviusx -> RE: Balance Thread (1/8/2021 5:50:12 PM)

Manpower is indeed the real constraining factor for the Germans down the line and why later in the war they end up subsidizing the Axis minors and Italy as a matter of efficiency.

Alvaro mentioned something upthread about infantry not scaling well. I think he is on to something here. And German infantry has a massive 20% experience bonus over everyone else, but even with that infantry just doesn't keep up well with mech in the later years.

This is exactly the opposite of real life, where armor started off strong but struggled later on as infantry AT weapons and such reversed the balance of arms more in favor of the poor bloody infantry as time went on. Combined arms become more rather than less important in time.



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