Historical torpedo tactics of warships (Full Version)

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porpoisehead -> Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/23/2020 1:51:43 PM)

Hey folks!

One of the things that keeps surprising me in the combat replays is warships chucking torpedoes at each other from thousands, even tens of thousands, of yards distance.

Is this historically accurate? How did warships of the era actually utilize torpedoes (in practice and/or in theory)?

I could probably Google this, but I think I'll get better and more interesting answers from this community. [:D]



GetAssista -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/23/2020 2:03:25 PM)

Long Lance is called that for a reason [:)] IJN used the range all the time, sometimes very effective like at Savo island



Dili -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/23/2020 2:43:10 PM)

Yes it is common for surface forces in daylight firing from around 7-11km. Specially when there were many destroyers. Most, maybe all torpedoes had a long range setting with less speed.



BBfanboy -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/23/2020 3:51:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Long Lance is called that for a reason [:)] IJN used the range all the time, sometimes very effective like at Savo island

From the maps and battle narratives I have seen the Japanese were fairly close (less than 6000 yards) when they launched their torps at the battle of Savo Island. Same at Tassafaronga. In those two night battles the torpedo was king. The Japanese had some success at the Battle of the Java Sea where the Japanese launched en masse from over 20K yards and got a few hits that threw the Allied line into confusion - not aware of the fantastic range of Japanese torps and not seeing any wakes, the Allied captains assumed they were in a minefield . Japanese gunnery was also more effective in that battle.

At the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (at night) the Japanese also used torps to good effect against the four DDs escorting BBs South Dakota and Washington, but failed to hit the BBs - likely overestimated the American's speed or underestimated the range. I don't know the launch range, but the BBs were firing at them so they probably launched as soon as they had visuals of something moving (the US TF was against the Guadalcanal shore so the silhouette would be masked except where surf marked them).

Where the Japanese were surprised at Cape Esperance and outmaneuvered at Empress Augusta Bay they scored no torpedo hits.

EDIT: I meant to mention that in the game, it is common for Allied DDs to launch torpedoes from extreme range - 10K yards for US DDs, 11K yards for British DDs. Near as I can tell, the more aggressive captains will hold their torps and try to close the range before launching. Like PT boats, it is common for the DDs not to launch when they are at short range like <4000 yards because they are out of position relative to the target or they wasted all their torps at long range already. [:-]



RangerJoe -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/23/2020 4:20:35 PM)

Some of the 4 pipers in the DEI managed to launch torpedoes at a Japanese invasion TF (I forget which one, Balikpappen, maybe) at longer range and even managed to hit some of their targets. They did not fire their guns so the Japanese who did not see the American DDs had no clue what as attacking them.

I think that it was preferred to launch torpedoes prior to the enemy detecting the DDs and prior to any naval gunfire. If the torpedoes were not going to hit, then the ships opened fire.

Think if the Oi and the Kitakami were together and surprised an Allied CV TF at relatively close range, then fired all of their torpedoes at different targets and hit them. [X(][X(][X(]



BBfanboy -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/23/2020 4:25:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some of the 4 pipers in the DEI managed to launch torpedoes at a Japanese invasion TF (I forget which one, Balikpappen, maybe) at longer range and even managed to hit some of their targets. They did not fire their guns so the Japanese who did not see the American DDs had no clue what as attacking them.

I think that it was preferred to launch torpedoes prior to the enemy detecting the DDs and prior to any naval gunfire. If the torpedoes were not going to hit, then the ships opened fire.

Think if the Oi and the Kitakami were together and surprised an Allied CV TF at relatively close range, then fired all of their torpedoes at different targets and hit them. [X(][X(][X(]

I mentioned Oi and Kitikami once and was educated that their torpedo cruiser mod was before December 1941 and that the IJN converted them again out of that role just before the war broke out. I guess their fleet exercises did not show them to be effective because of air power taking them out.



RangerJoe -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/23/2020 4:32:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Some of the 4 pipers in the DEI managed to launch torpedoes at a Japanese invasion TF (I forget which one, Balikpappen, maybe) at longer range and even managed to hit some of their targets. They did not fire their guns so the Japanese who did not see the American DDs had no clue what as attacking them.

I think that it was preferred to launch torpedoes prior to the enemy detecting the DDs and prior to any naval gunfire. If the torpedoes were not going to hit, then the ships opened fire.

Think if the Oi and the Kitakami were together and surprised an Allied CV TF at relatively close range, then fired all of their torpedoes at different targets and hit them. [X(][X(][X(]

I mentioned Oi and Kitikami once and was educated that their torpedo cruiser mod was before December 1941 and that the IJN converted them again out of that role just before the war broke out. I guess their fleet exercises did not show them to be effective because of air power taking them out.


They were also slower than the other light cruisers plus, if I remember correctly, the IJN was running short of torpedo mounts and needed those.



rustysi -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/23/2020 8:22:19 PM)

quote:

I forget which one, Balikpappen, maybe


Yes.



fcooke -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/23/2020 8:35:42 PM)

IIRC the 4 pipers hit a couple of ships at Balik but then the confused IJN started torping their own ships.....

I quite like the 4 pipers early war (and the S-boats). Dutch boats are gold.



mind_messing -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/24/2020 3:21:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Long Lance is called that for a reason [:)] IJN used the range all the time, sometimes very effective like at Savo island


IIRC the longer range settings on the Type 93 were rarely used in combat - IJN practice was to dump them using the fast speed settings.



porpoisehead -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/24/2020 4:06:05 PM)

Interesting stuff! I looked up the Long Lance and, holy crap, it's bigger than my car! I would not want to be on the receiving end...



fcooke -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/24/2020 5:15:46 PM)

Even at high speed 'short range' settings I think Long Lances had greater range than Mk15s at low speed / long range.



Capt. Harlock -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/25/2020 1:05:41 AM)

quote:

At the Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (at night) the Japanese also used torps to good effect against the four DDs escorting BBs South Dakota and Washington, but failed to hit the BBs - likely overestimated the American's speed or underestimated the range. I don't know the launch range, but the BBs were firing at them so they probably launched as soon as they had visuals of something moving


From what I've read, the Japanese launched another round of torpedoes at Washington after Kirishima had been knocked out. However, by that time Washington had turned away, and one of the torpedoes is reported to have exploded when it went into the U.S. battleship's wake. (A massive ship traveling at speed leaves a great deal of turbulent water behind it.)



fcooke -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/25/2020 5:49:18 AM)

24k yards at 48 knots for the long lance
Mk 15 - 15k yards at 26 knots - long range
Mk 15 - 6k yards at 45 knots - short range

Ouch.

Of course they could also hurt IJN ships as was demonstrated in the battle of Samar.....touchy little buggers. I think there is also speculation that Mikuma had one of hers go off at Midway.



PaxMondo -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (12/26/2020 1:59:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: porpoisehead

Interesting stuff! I looked up the Long Lance and, holy crap, it's bigger than my car! I would not want to be on the receiving end...

There is one one on display at Anapolis if you ever get by ....



Dgsbdy -> RE: Historical torpedo tactics of warships (1/11/2021 11:35:21 AM)

Tamechi Hara IJN, "Destroyer Captain" was his book, great read. He perfected Japanese destroyer technique before the war but not many appeared to have adhered to it. The way he described it, he found that you have a line of ships or even a single target ahead, "crossing the T". You approach at high speed in a parabola, (ellipse?) . The curving approach keeps shells from getting a track on you. You have to get within 5000 yards, which means you are going to have shells falling all around you on the way in, even from 5"guns. When in range at 5000, he would go hard over, creating the "peak" or curve at the tip of the parabola, releasing the torpedoes in a fan shaped but aimed spread as he went through the turn, then completing the parabola on the way out. Even radar controlled guns would have a hard time tracking and hitting a curving target, and it was a faster approach and escape than zig zagging.

He also pioneered, by accident, a counter against skip bombing, rather than zig zagging during one skip bombing attempt by A-20's or B 26's, he at the last moment ordered full speed ahead, no evasion. The planes came at him broadside, his gunners could take a much better aim, and the Shigure brought down both planes, the rapid hits spoiling their aim, and one plane ditched on the far side of the destroyer and the other limped over the horizon and ditched. Flames and smoke from Shigure's smokestack from the sudden surge allegedly made surviving members of the flight think the destroyer was hit and they went off to find other game



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