Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (Full Version)

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Pocus -> Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/29/2020 7:23:50 AM)

The cost is huge. 30% of the unit price, to get +1 move. And that's not just the entry ticket the issue, all replacements and operate cost more.

I'm wondering if it is not better to give each unit a role somehow. Infantry is ... infantry, hit hard, move not that fast. You want faster unit? Buy more tanks or mechanized.

Blurring role? Yes you can certainly motorize some of your infantry, but the cost is tremendous. Does the return on investment is worth it?




fluidwill matrix -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/29/2020 12:23:54 PM)

Personally I only ever use increased mobility on units that are fighting in the mountains of China and India and even than then I think long and hard about it because as you've noticed it is hugely expensive. The extra MP can and does come in useful in that terrain though.



EarlyDoors -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/29/2020 5:25:17 PM)

Mobility - Too pricy for me



GiveWarAchance -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/29/2020 6:02:43 PM)

I also found mobility price to be crippling. I only rarely use it on tanks and special forces so they swoop in to smack soft support units when possible. I don't like how it renders the upgrade tooltip unusable cause if I use the upgrade tooltip it lumps on all available upgrades to units clicked on causing immense financial hardship to my nation so I have to manually do each upgrade which is slower. It would be nice to have mobility require a separate add-on from the right-click menu so the upgrade tooltip can be used with impunity.



calcwerc -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/29/2020 6:06:15 PM)

Depends on situation. Early in the war, it will probably be too expensive for most nations, but late in the war a winning allied side will probably get to use it on a lot of units, especially USA. I normally dont bother with it for Japan, but for Germany it can give an edge in encirclement warfare in France and Russia when used for a few units, mostly infantry corps or tank units.



Pocus -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/30/2020 6:39:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GiveWarAchance

I also found mobility price to be crippling. I only rarely use it on tanks and special forces so they swoop in to smack soft support units when possible. I don't like how it renders the upgrade tooltip unusable cause if I use the upgrade tooltip it lumps on all available upgrades to units clicked on causing immense financial hardship to my nation so I have to manually do each upgrade which is slower. It would be nice to have mobility require a separate add-on from the right-click menu so the upgrade tooltip can be used with impunity.


This is bothering me too. Or perhaps for grognards a modifier key, if you shift-click, mobility is not added. This way 95% of the players won't be bothered by the additional micro-feature but for the micro-managers, they can have it.



GiveWarAchance -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/30/2020 6:43:35 AM)

Pocus that would work. Another solution is to make mobility cheaper. I think it means adding trucks to the unit which is understandably expensive, but maybe somewhat cheaper would balance realism with economic practicality.



Hubert Cater -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/30/2020 4:59:46 PM)

If I remember correctly when it was cheaper then pretty much every unit was motorized on the map and it was a bit unrealistic. I believe the idea here is that it is purposefully expensive for balance and game play reasons. Much like air units are now more expensive to Operate and so on etc.



PJL1973 -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/30/2020 6:38:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

If I remember correctly when it was cheaper then pretty much every unit was motorized on the map and it was a bit unrealistic. I believe the idea here is that it is purposefully expensive for balance and game play reasons. Much like air units are now more expensive to Operate and so on etc.


Having all units motorised is probably unrealistic for the Axis Powers, China, India & (to a lesser extent) Russia. But for the British & US they were much more motorised than the rest. I would argue that it should be much less expense for them to upgrade due to this (and their much easier access to oil). You could make it a bit cheaper for the Russians as well (again due to oil and also the massive quantities of trucks received via Lend Lease).



Tanaka -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/30/2020 6:43:52 PM)

Ah motorization. I remember when I used to try and motorize everything. I quickly learned the best players did not and wondered where all of those extra units came from!



Tanaka -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/30/2020 6:45:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

If I remember correctly when it was cheaper then pretty much every unit was motorized on the map and it was a bit unrealistic. I believe the idea here is that it is purposefully expensive for balance and game play reasons. Much like air units are now more expensive to Operate and so on etc.


Yes you definitely have to pick and choose now. Very historical and realistic though as a majority of the German Army was not motorized.



USGrant1962 -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/30/2020 7:07:27 PM)

I've been away from WiE for a while and just started playing WaW (Christmas sale) and I quickly noticed the "overpriced" Mobility upgrade while doing routine upgrades and all my BRPs (I mean MPPs [:D]) disappeared. I agree that once you have researched Mobility the upgrade tool becomes problematic.

Comparing the cost of an Infantry Army (250) plus Mobility (50) at 300 to a base Mechanized at 250 leads me to conclude I should buy all my Mech before using Mobility on infantry. The Mech has 5 APs vs 4 for Inf+Mob, 20 vs 10 demoralization, slightly worse attack/defense against soft and naval targets, better against armor, and the same against hard targets. So I get an extra AP (which can still add Mobility), better anti-armor, and more demoralization with some less important downsides; all for 50 MPP less than a mobilized infantry army.

I understand there is a step function where you cannot enter a hex at all if your APs don't equal the cost, so that tilts a little back toward Mobilizing low AP units. I'm seeing this issue in China. But Corps already have 4 APs so there is a partial solution for that.

I don't know what the Mobility upgrade % cost was in the past, but it feels like dropping it slightly from the current 20% would make sense. But, not sure if a small change would make Mobilize any more useful and understand that too cheap would flood the map with trucks.

I'm a relative novice at the current game (though I've played since the SC1 and Clash of Steel before that) so I'll defer to the experts.




Tanaka -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/30/2020 8:16:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PJL1973


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

If I remember correctly when it was cheaper then pretty much every unit was motorized on the map and it was a bit unrealistic. I believe the idea here is that it is purposefully expensive for balance and game play reasons. Much like air units are now more expensive to Operate and so on etc.


Having all units motorised is probably unrealistic for the Axis Powers, China, India & (to a lesser extent) Russia. But for the British & US they were much more motorised than the rest. I would argue that it should be much less expense for them to upgrade due to this (and their much easier access to oil). You could make it a bit cheaper for the Russians as well (again due to oil and also the massive quantities of trucks received via Lend Lease).


Disagree the USA already has unlimited income to do whatever they want with. The costs should be the same.



Pocus -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/31/2020 3:11:39 AM)

Motorization is at 30% cost. But that would be ok if it was only the entry ticket. The issue is that it also alters replacements costs. I don't know that well the game, but perhaps 25% would be better.

Or even better, have it at +20% for Western Allies, and let the other horse-powers keep their 30%



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/31/2020 7:18:02 AM)

Some motorization is good, and well worth.

Use it for Spain, Greece, Turkey if you wanna knock them out. Also, have couple motorized for breakouts. Don't need many, cannot afford it anyways.

Most the time, I get motorization for Japan, all the new units will come with it, Summer 1941.



USGrant1962 -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/31/2020 2:38:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Motorization is at 30% cost. But that would be ok if it was only the entry ticket. The issue is that it also alters replacements costs. I don't know that well the game, but perhaps 25% would be better.

Or even better, have it at +20% for Western Allies, and let the other horse-powers keep their 30%


This caused me to poke around a bit in the game and the editor. I first loaded up the 1944 scenario, assuming most of the majors would have researched Mobility. Interestingly, I noticed that mech and mob were cheaper for the Allies than the Axis. What?

I then opened up the Editor for the first time - very nice, even a non-programmer like me can figure it out. I started a "new" campaign and the default cost for Army and Mech are the same for everyone (250) and the default Mobility cost is +20%. You can change each of these by country if you wish.

OK, let's look at the 1939 campaign in the editor - BINGO! The scenario designer has changed German Mobility (and only Germany) to +30%. One could argue they should have also changed Italy, China, and maybe Japan but in practice that is probably unnecessary due to MPP constraints on those countries. So for Germany, buy all your Mech first and then worry about a few Mob upgrades here and there.

It appears that one or more scenario designers have attacked the mobility/mech question (Allies more motorized than Axis) in different ways. Very nice, but may create some confusion.

After poking around and thinking about it, I'm leaning toward this is all WAD. But I still feel it breaks the upgrade tool.



Tanaka -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/31/2020 6:39:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USGrant1962


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pocus

Motorization is at 30% cost. But that would be ok if it was only the entry ticket. The issue is that it also alters replacements costs. I don't know that well the game, but perhaps 25% would be better.

Or even better, have it at +20% for Western Allies, and let the other horse-powers keep their 30%


This caused me to poke around a bit in the game and the editor. I first loaded up the 1944 scenario, assuming most of the majors would have researched Mobility. Interestingly, I noticed that mech and mob were cheaper for the Allies than the Axis. What?

OK, let's look at the 1939 campaign in the editor - BINGO! The scenario designer has changed German Mobility (and only Germany) to +30%.



Well damn how is that fair? Don't the Allies have enough advantages? [sm=tank2-39.gif]



Mithrilotter -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/31/2020 7:38:14 PM)

Axis mobility upgrades are more expensive because of oil shortages.



Xsillione -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (12/31/2020 7:57:50 PM)

Mobility for germany is too pricey, but it is perfectly historical, everyone else it is cheaper, but some (italy/chine/india) still cannot pay it, and for japan and SU it is not a good idea on every unit, some to get over the mountains and other bad terrain, but not everyone. UK can choose between faster or more units, and mostly need more, so for them it is a bit ahistorical, and the US just does not care, will run out of units to buy anyway. It would be nice to have a some trigger for the german extra price to be dropped, like after they take over x amount of oil fields, the extra cost drops, since no they have enough oil to pay for it the normal price, but probably it would be a bit tricky to check, and usually you already won if you have any reasonable number of extra oil fields.



ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (1/1/2021 6:04:24 AM)

The interesting question is, lets say you have Motorization, how you gonna use it most effectively?



Elessar2 -> RE: Motorizing Infantry - a question to the experts (1/1/2021 8:00:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mithrilotter

Axis mobility upgrades are more expensive because of oil shortages.


And their relatively unmotorized economy. Many of the trucks used for Barbarossa were scrounged from their earlier conquests, and often couldn't be repaired once they broke down (for lack of parts).



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