What about the Finns? (Full Version)

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76mm -> What about the Finns? (12/29/2020 6:56:48 PM)

How does WitE2 treat the Finns? Some games seem to treat them just like more German troops free to do whatever, while others neuter them completely by preventing from invading Russian territory at all.

Neither treatment is very realistic or satisfying, so what does WitE2 have in mind? What kind of "hard limits", if any, are coded into Finnish behavior?



Aurelian -> RE: What about the Finns? (12/29/2020 6:59:42 PM)

All the Finns wanted was to regain what they lost. They were also pressured by the US to not cut the Murmansk railway



76mm -> RE: What about the Finns? (12/29/2020 8:54:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
All the Finns wanted was to regain what they lost. They were also pressured by the US to not cut the Murmansk railway

Sure, but that's not the point: the point is how are they treated in the game? The Finns are essentially a third player in a two-player game, so there should be some kind of rules governing their conduct.



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: What about the Finns? (12/29/2020 10:05:52 PM)

As far as I know the Finns will not be playable during the release and will be a theatre box. But there are events that can activate Finnish units such as if Leningrad falls. At least that is what was said.

Finns should be governed by some rules in regards to their conduct in my opinion as the Finns really did not fight an offensive war against the Soviets or were that close an ally with the Germans other than fighting the same enemy. It was more the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of deal.



Denniss -> RE: What about the Finns? (12/30/2020 8:26:00 AM)

Even in WitE1 the Finns were very restricted in how far they could move south, they can't be used to attack Leningrad as their original intention was, as mentioned, to recover what they lost to the Soviet union in previous war(s). In WitE1 they got limited movement freedom once Leningrad had fallen to Germans.



Simon Edmonds -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/2/2021 10:36:44 PM)

One of the things I don't hear mentioned very much about the Finns was that in 1941 the Soviets made peace overtures towards Finland through the US. If the Finns made peace then they would get back everything they lost in the winter war. Then Typhoon happened and the Finnish Government decided by a narrow margin to continue the war. In game terms if the Axis player fails to capture Rhzev, Vyazma, Bryansk and Orel during October then the Finns exit in November. Is this represented anywhere in WitE 2?



Aurelian -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/3/2021 1:55:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian
All the Finns wanted was to regain what they lost. They were also pressured by the US to not cut the Murmansk railway

Sure, but that's not the point: the point is how are they treated in the game? The Finns are essentially a third player in a two-player game, so there should be some kind of rules governing their conduct.


Yeah, but you mentioned realistic. :) And very little happened there anyway as they went defensive in Dec 1941 and stayed that way until they got pushed back to about the same positions they had at the end of the Winter War in 1944.



Farfarer61 -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/4/2021 8:01:02 PM)

That is a neat idea. Are you able to research the perhaps now declassified or public deliberations of the Finnish government ? Perhaps this event could be then be modeled and slightly randomized so as not to be predictable.
On a related note a Finnish General history buff told me a major deterrent from attacking Leningrad was that they considered the Russians as adept at urban warfare as the Finns were in the country, and had no appetite for 10:1 losses as the Finns had inflicted in the Winter War.



Technopiper -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/5/2021 3:12:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer61
On a related note a Finnish General history buff told me a major deterrent from attacking Leningrad was that they considered the Russians as adept at urban warfare as the Finns were in the country, and had no appetite for 10:1 losses as the Finns had inflicted in the Winter War.

How were the Finns able to fathom Soviet urban fighting capability? Furthermore, they don't have to take Leningrad, cutting it off would do. Having said that, a realistic approach would be not focusing too much on the Finns as they weren't interested in going all in historically.



hmatilai -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/5/2021 8:24:17 AM)

Biggest reason for Finns not assaulting Leningrad was geography (Leningrad is practically next to Finnish border) and forward thinking. Mannerheim was an old general from the Czar's army and had spent huge parts of his life in St. Petersburg studying and working. He also knew whatever happens during the war, Leningrad and Russians will be there after the war and they would never forget if Finns took part in destroying the city.



Sardaukar -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/5/2021 10:51:28 AM)

WitE 2 wisely abstract Finns until Leningrad is taken by Germany. It'd be unncecessary complication with all political aspects.

Even after that most of the abstraction continues.

This is historical, because of USA pressure (interestingly never declared war with Finland). USA was adamantly against Finland e.g. cutting the Murmansk railroads to south etc. and Finns did comply.



76mm -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/5/2021 1:04:43 PM)

quote:

WitE 2 wisely abstract Finns until Leningrad is taken by Germany. It'd be unncecessary complication with all political aspects.

Even after that most of the abstraction continues.

So what does this mean for the Soviets? Are they forced to keep some troops along the Finnish border to guard against the "abstract" Finns? What happens if the Soviets denude the Finnish border of troops?



Jorgen_CAB -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/5/2021 2:22:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

WitE 2 wisely abstract Finns until Leningrad is taken by Germany. It'd be unncecessary complication with all political aspects.

Even after that most of the abstraction continues.

So what does this mean for the Soviets? Are they forced to keep some troops along the Finnish border to guard against the "abstract" Finns? What happens if the Soviets denude the Finnish border of troops?


I guess it will work similar to the Germans who will have to send troops to other theatre boxes. There can be all sorts of events happening depending on what troops are there.

The Russians will have both the Finns and the Far East theatres to worry about in addition to the main campaign. The Germans have a few more theatres to worry about I guess and probably can influence the Finnish theatre as well.



loki100 -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/5/2021 3:05:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

WitE 2 wisely abstract Finns until Leningrad is taken by Germany. It'd be unncecessary complication with all political aspects.

Even after that most of the abstraction continues.

So what does this mean for the Soviets? Are they forced to keep some troops along the Finnish border to guard against the "abstract" Finns? What happens if the Soviets denude the Finnish border of troops?


we'll cover all this in a later update post looking at the Theatre Box mechanics etc



Technopiper -> RE: What about the Finns? (1/5/2021 4:56:23 PM)

Over the topic, but I was only thinking about this a few days ago: WitE handles "edge of the map" syndrome by giving it a really huge map. I think it is best at reproducing historical operations well within its scope. You always need "one size larger" for simulations to work. But at the edge of its map, both figuratively and metaphorically ("the grand strategy" scale), you start spotting the seams. Not saying this is a problem for me, just musing about the game.



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