RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (Full Version)

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loki100 -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (1/21/2021 12:59:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

You dont have unlimited supply via ports. How much you get depends from port size.


and also how many transport ships you have in that sea area. Oh and its possible to effectively close off a port via naval air operations



MechFO -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (1/23/2021 6:29:21 PM)

By far the best logistics system in any game to date.

How did you arrive at basic parameters like how many trucks should be used for transporting freight x number of hexes or how much freight can fit on a double rail line?



wpurdom -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (1/27/2021 6:26:06 PM)

My apologies to loki100: I also posted this in his AAR where this is probably OT.

I confess I tried to get an answer to this on another thread, and got 2 answers which weren't answers to my question. So I want to try my luck with different phrasing.

Is there any differential in German RR repair as to either time or place?
Historically, the RR destruction was more miss than hit in the first couple of weeks of the campaign and the Germans got their first trains through to Minsk and Riga very early.

In WITE1 this is modelled by having a region where repair is faster (the Baltic states, basically).

In TOAW Barbarossa scenarios this is modelled by leaving some or all RR hexes intact after conquest in early turns, varying by scenario modeller.

Is there anything like either of these mechanisms in WITE2?



Joel Billings -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (1/27/2021 10:16:43 PM)

70% of the Baltic rail hexes are captured undamaged in the first 3 turns of the game.



Joel Billings -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (1/27/2021 10:20:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

By far the best logistics system in any game to date.

How did you arrive at basic parameters like how many trucks should be used for transporting freight x number of hexes or how much freight can fit on a double rail line?



Gary developed the system. He had studied the Allied logistics in France 44 for WitW so he had a basic understanding of some of the issues (like tonnage arriving in ports, etc.). Some Eastern Front info we got from sources posted by testers (like rail line capacity and how Soviets ran one way rail lines to increase capacity for key areas, giving us some justification for super depots). However, I have to admit that there are some serious abstractions in the game and a lot of the numbers are things that developed over time in testing to get us the results we were looking for.



fritzfarlig -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (2/20/2021 11:29:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

THe importance of Logistics becomes obvious after reading quote below..



"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics."
- Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980

I really like this quote (O:



Hanny -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/1/2021 7:44:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

THe importance of Logistics becomes obvious after reading quotes

I see this list every so often, here’s two more for you.

Plans are worthless, planning is is essential.
Proper planning prevents piss poor performance.



OccatorPilot -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/3/2021 8:20:52 PM)

This logistics system looks amazing. Me and my friends usually play other games, but when I saw this I had to pre-order :)



Repsol -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/17/2021 6:04:46 PM)

Have i understod this correct. A railyard depot may only have two possible levels of damage due to the railyard being bombed...
Either fully functional or functional at a mere 10 percent of its capacity.

If i have two prio 4 depots along the same rail line one after the other will the second depot recieve any freight if the first one has recieved up to its capacity ? or will the first prio 4 depot halt any further deliveries along that line ?



loki100 -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/17/2021 6:11:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Repsol

Have i understod this correct. A railyard depot may only have two possible levels of damage due to the railyard being bombed...
Either fully functional or functional at a mere 10 percent of its capacity.

If i have two prio 4 depots along the same rail line one after the other will the second depot recieve any freight if the first one has recieved up to its capacity ? or will the first prio 4 depot halt any further deliveries along that line ?



1 - no, it can 100 states from 0% functioning to 100% functional

2 - it depends,.if there is sufficient rail capacity then both may fill up to their operating capacity (& you can increase that with HQ placement). What they won't do is to transfer freight between them but both can separately claim freight from lower priority depots back towards the relevant NSS



M60A3TTS -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/17/2021 6:17:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Repsol

Have i understod this correct. A railyard depot may only have two possible levels of damage due to the railyard being bombed...
Either fully functional or functional at a mere 10 percent of its capacity.

If i have two prio 4 depots along the same rail line one after the other will the second depot recieve any freight if the first one has recieved up to its capacity ? or will the first prio 4 depot halt any further deliveries along that line ?



1. Where did you read that?

2. Freight is not stopped at the first depot. I've seen cases where a player has almost all of their depots set at level 4 although I generally don't recommend it. But you'll get differing opinions over it.



ranknfile -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/17/2021 6:26:45 PM)

Below (the text not in italics) is my question to RedLancer (in the "War in the East 2 Full Manual Previews"). I am thinking that perhaps the confusion (mine and perhaps Respol's as well) is that two equal priority depots along the same rail will have supplies passing through the first depot to the second, NOT "coming from the first" to the second.

In 25.7 there is a picture with two Priority 3 Depots. The text refers to them:
"In this case the Soviet depot at Alekseevka (1) is drawing supply
from Svobida (2)."

The two named depots are both priority 3 depots, I thought a level 3 depot could only supply a higher priority depot. As per below:

"4.10.10. Depot Priority and freight
movement
A depot will only send freight to a depot at a higher priority
(so a priority 4 depot will not send freight to another depot)."

Not sure this helps, or only adds to the confusion! [8|]



Repsol -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/17/2021 6:27:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS


quote:

ORIGINAL: Repsol

Have i understod this correct. A railyard depot may only have two possible levels of damage due to the railyard being bombed...
Either fully functional or functional at a mere 10 percent of its capacity.

If i have two prio 4 depots along the same rail line one after the other will the second depot recieve any freight if the first one has recieved up to its capacity ? or will the first prio 4 depot halt any further deliveries along that line ?



1. Where did you read that?

2. Freight is not stopped at the first depot. I've seen cases where a player has almost all of their depots set at level 4 although I generally don't recommend it. But you'll get differing opinions over it.



1...

25.4.2. Damaged Railyards
Railyard damage will reduce the amount of freight that
would be shipped and unloaded at a railyard depot in the
hex. There is a percentage chance equal to the railyard
damage that the amount shipped to a railyard depot will
be divided by 10.

2...

Thanks



M60A3TTS -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/17/2021 7:06:44 PM)

So on (1) a damaged railyard will be from 1-99%. This is true whether it is bombed or captured. If the capacity of a base is 10k tons and it is 50% damaged, it can only hold 5k tons. Now that is of course what it can hold, and not what it can get. That is where that factor of 10 comes into play. In this example, a 50% damaged railyard also has a 50% chance that the freight shipped to its depot will be divided by 10. So the more your railyard is damaged, the greater chance it will see fewer supplies.

This is why you want a good number of railyards with functional depots in reasonable proximity to the front.



Repsol -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/17/2021 7:36:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

So on (1) a damaged railyard will be from 1-99%. This is true whether it is bombed or captured. If the capacity of a base is 10k tons and it is 50% damaged, it can only hold 5k tons. Now that is of course what it can hold, and not what it can get. That is where that factor of 10 comes into play. In this example, a 50% damaged railyard also has a 50% chance that the freight shipped to its depot will be divided by 10. So the more your railyard is damaged, the greater chance it will see fewer supplies.

This is why you want a good number of railyards with functional depots in reasonable proximity to the front.


Thanks..

So a 10K base damaged at 50% that had 2K stored since last turn could either recieve 3K (if random 50%(damage)is succesful)) filling up the depot to 5K...
or recieve 300 (if random 50% failes) filling up the depot to 2.3K....Given that freight and railyard/line capacity is avaliable.

Correct ?



M60A3TTS -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/17/2021 9:14:44 PM)

There are no guarantees with the supply system. Depots may get freight in significant quantities and they may not. Think of those numbers more as theoretical maximums rather than assured deliveries.



James80 -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 12:45:42 PM)

I also had problems with the refit option in Wite1. And this part of the manual is not really understandable for me:
quote:

25.8.1. Supply Priority and Maximum
Supply Allocation
Units linked to a HQ with a supply priority of less than
4 will not try to receive all the supply they notionally need.
The chart below shows how unit supply priority will limit
the extent that a unit will try to attempt replenishment
during a particular supply/replacement segment.
Unit Priority Percent of Need
4 < 90%
3 < 90%
2 <70%
1 <50%
0 <30%


Does that mean if a priority below 4 is assigned that unit will never get enough of it needs? Wouldn't it be better to reduce the TOE instead? In which case would you assign a priority of 0 or 1?



loki100 -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 2:18:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James80

I also had problems with the refit option in Wite1. And this part of the manual is not really understandable for me:
quote:

25.8.1. Supply Priority and Maximum
Supply Allocation
Units linked to a HQ with a supply priority of less than
4 will not try to receive all the supply they notionally need.
The chart below shows how unit supply priority will limit
the extent that a unit will try to attempt replenishment
during a particular supply/replacement segment.
Unit Priority Percent of Need
4 < 90%
3 < 90%
2 <70%
1 <50%
0 <30%


Does that mean if a priority below 4 is assigned that unit will never get enough of it needs? Wouldn't it be better to reduce the TOE instead? In which case would you assign a priority of 0 or 1?



well TOE % is a poor guide to actual supply demand and is often slow to adjust either way.

what you are doing with those numbers is setting 2 things:

a) demand for supply on a particular sector
b) how much effort a given formation will put into gaining supply

So if you either want to build up your depots or simply can't supply enough to a sector then use those values to match off supply/demand. More importantly if local demand > supply then units will go looking for what is missing. As in WITW you can find yourself losing more MP/CV due to the resultant truck shortages than due to any supply shortages.



dudefan -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 2:33:10 PM)

"Note that depots will function less efficiently if either the railyard or port in the hex is damaged. In turn they will function more efficiently if a HQ (other than a type 4, High Command level HQ or any air HQ"

Does ist mean army hq (on axis side e.g.) can't do that? Too bad, since in my opinion army hqs would be in need of being buffed. Imo they only serve for leader checks and are otherwise useless.



loki100 -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 2:40:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

"Note that depots will function less efficiently if either the railyard or port in the hex is damaged. In turn they will function more efficiently if a HQ (other than a type 4, High Command level HQ or any air HQ"

Does ist mean army hq (on axis side e.g.) can't do that? Too bad, since in my opinion army hqs would be in need of being buffed. Imo they only serve for leader checks and are otherwise useless.


no it really does mean what it says. All HQs apart from high commands (Stavka/OKH) or air commands improve the capacity of a depot. See the rules in 25.7.8



dudefan -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 2:50:28 PM)

Cool I misunderstood type 4 command. Thx. Can't wait



James80 -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 3:54:45 PM)

quote:

well TOE % is a poor guide to actual supply demand and is often slow to adjust either way.

what you are doing with those numbers is setting 2 things:

a) demand for supply on a particular sector
b) how much effort a given formation will put into gaining supply

So if you either want to build up your depots or simply can't supply enough to a sector then use those values to match off supply/demand. More importantly if local demand > supply then units will go looking for what is missing. As in WITW you can find yourself losing more MP/CV due to the resultant truck shortages than due to any supply shortages.


Thanks for your fast response.

Just to get things clear for me:
If I order a unit priority of 1 then this unit will just get up to 50 % supply/replacement, although there would be enough supply in the depot? And if this is right: Would the unit get penalties for not having enough supplies?



loki100 -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 4:35:48 PM)

yes and yes.

Its all a trade-off, if you don't demand supply on a secondary front there is more for a critical one (there isn't enough to set every depot and formation to #4 and fill up).

On the other hand, if local supply is limited, the rules on MP and CV calculation present you with deciding whether to accept a loss due to a lack of supply (as you say) or due to having the supply but a lack of trucks (as they are off collecting that supply). There is no easy solution to this, it can be very situational.

As an eg, in the AAR I posted, I could never solve the supply to Soviet formations in S Hungary, trying to do this crippled the in unit truck stock. So I set them all to priority #1 and limped on. I could partly solve the challenge on the direct approach to Budapest by using all the tricks to improve delivery, managing the tempo of operations and being fairly ruthless about putting secondary formations to a low supply level.

On the direct route to Berlin, I could manage with high priority commands basically by being prepared to work on optimising delivery and using operational pauses



Repsol -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 4:55:38 PM)

Would having a function to set a MAX DISTANCE for each individual unit (either on the unit info screen or on the commander report) to --- go search for supply --- be useful or would that be unneccesary and nedless micromanagment ?
Setting such a distance/limit could allow the player to prevent important units from waisting their trucks on long supply gathering trips to far away depots. They get what they can form the depots within the max range...but go no further.







loki100 -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 5:28:19 PM)

maybe. No idea if that would create more management or not but the game design uses the twin pillars of depot priority (local supply) and HQ priority (local demand) with this interacting via the road and rail systems (for the most part).

There is a hard limit for the search for supply (30 hexes if I recall & it will try to use less than 75MP).

At that level it works in a manner similar to WiTW and you end up with a fairly common sense feel for what works where. In WiTW there was no point putting Allied units moving towards Alsace etc on much of a supply priority as it just wasn't there. The WiTE2 map is relatively easy to read in this respect with some experience (just the dead zones are frustratingly different for both sides - due to the rail net layouts).

You end up with some rough and ready rules. Take the Germans in 1941, from say mid-July you probably have the supply on average to give everyone say level 2.5. So you could split your formations 2/3 and it would work out not too bad. But its not uniform in the sense of delivery capacity or local demand- assuming you are keeping roughly to the historical model AGC somehow has to supply 2 Pzr Armies, so that adds a huge dump of local demand, and you want them to be mobile (that is after all their real value) so you may need to suppress infantry supply levels (or keep the LW back).



Repsol -> RE: Showcasing WitE2 #3 - Logistics (3/18/2021 5:47:03 PM)

OK, thanks...
I guess that experimenting with this will be part of the game challange [8D]



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