Soviet Deep Battle (Full Version)

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fighterf4u -> Soviet Deep Battle (1/26/2021 4:16:29 AM)

One of the issues I had with WITE 1 is that you simply cannot achieve the same mechanized breakthroughs that the Soviets historically achieved in 44/45. For example, it historically took the Red Army only 2 weeks to advance from the Vistula to the Oder but there is no way you can achieve the same result in the WITE 1 "Vistula-Oder" scenario even on Easy.

Will the late 1944 and 1945 Germans in WITE 2 be as overpowered they were before? I mean by this point, a Soviet Guards Tanks Corps should be as powerful (relatively speaking) as a German panzer division in summer 41/42.



loki100 -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/26/2021 7:24:27 AM)

The Vistula-Berlin campaign scenario is an excellent place to test this out. But getting it right is not just about movement capacity, its about understanding how to make the supply system work to sustain that notional capacity.



Sardaukar -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/26/2021 11:46:41 AM)

Amusingly, AI is quite a bit better in defence than German High Command (Hitler) was...



fighterf4u -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/26/2021 5:48:49 PM)

Yeah, with the slow rate of Soviet advance in WITE1, I've barely ever ran into supply issues as the Russian in WITE1. In reality, the Soviets advanced formations faced just as many supply issues as the German panzer formation.

Hopefully, with the supply and other changes, playing the late war Sovs feels more like the Germans in the early war, where lightning deep battle breakthroughs are halted by supply and attrition issues. In WITE1, playing late war Soviets is a tedious WW1 style slog where even tank armies can barely advance 2-3 hexes a turn.



Rusty1961 -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/26/2021 6:26:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fighterf4u

One of the issues I had with WITE 1 is that you simply cannot achieve the same mechanized breakthroughs that the Soviets historically achieved in 44/45. For example, it historically took the Red Army only 2 weeks to advance from the Vistula to the Oder but there is no way you can achieve the same result in the WITE 1 "Vistula-Oder" scenario even on Easy.

Will the late 1944 and 1945 Germans in WITE 2 be as overpowered they were before? I mean by this point, a Soviet Guards Tanks Corps should be as powerful (relatively speaking) as a German panzer division in summer 41/42.



I agree. I played the late war scenarios A LOT and the Russians never approached historical results.



loki100 -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/26/2021 7:10:34 PM)

I'll give my usual reply - this is not WiTE1 with some extra rules, its near enough a completely new game design with a few familiar features.

Whether you can match Soviet late war operational results depends on (a) your MP/combat capacity; (b) how well you set up the logistics chain, and, (c) the Germans matching their late war operational constraints. You have the capacity, the question is can you exploit that in practice.

And probably most important, are you prepared to use operational pauses as the Soviets did in preparation?



fighterf4u -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/26/2021 9:41:08 PM)

quote:

You have the capacity, the question is can you exploit that in practice.


That's good to hear.

As someone who plays mostly single player and the scenarios rather than the GC, I hope the Soviets in the Bagration/Danube/Vistula WITE2 scenarios start out with the necessary combat capacity and logistics networks to give a competent player the opportunity to achieve roughly historical results.



Simon Edmonds -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/26/2021 10:33:39 PM)

By the time of summer of 44 on-wards Hitler's "no retreat" policy had historically bled the Axis forces white. Axis players usually don't get themselves into Stalingrad situations. Try adding the lost forces of the Sixth Army to Army Group Center and see how that effects Operation Bagration. One of the key reasons Bagration was so successful was that Germany had nothing left in the tank. And once again what units they did have were forbidden to retreat until too late.
The Vistula to the Oder. Same thing. Only this was compounded by Himmler incompetently moving the defending forces out of the path of the Russians.
Against a competent Axis play few Russian players will even come close to what was historically acheived. Simply the way the game unfolds. No changes necessary.



fighterf4u -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/26/2021 10:49:37 PM)

quote:

Against a competent Axis play few Russian players will even come close to what was historically acheived. Simply the way the game unfolds. No changes necessary.


But the Germans in WITE1 are doing way better than they did historically even under the AI.

Historically in the Vistula-Oder offensive, Zhukov reached the Oder on Jan. 25th. In the WITE1 Vistula to Berlin scenario, which is supposed to simulate the offensive, the Soviet player would be lucky to reach it in late-February - against Easy AI.

Obviously, the German player should have the opportunity to do better than they did historically. But that should require skill and be a challenge. For even the weakest AI to do so ahistorically well against a skilled human Soviet player - that requires revision of the game.



RedLancer -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/27/2021 10:36:25 AM)

To re-emphasise WitE2 is not a spruced up version of WitE.

For WitE2 development we were lucky to have a working Vistula to Berlin full campaign from quite early on. This has allowed us to address some of the challenges you note. In just the last week we found a problem with infantry HEAT weapons. As these didn't exist in 1941 only playing late into 44/45 are we able to spot the challenges. Adding the new super depot system has a lot to do with ensuring 44/45 soviet advances can be sustained at historic rates.



fighterf4u -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/27/2021 7:11:35 PM)

quote:

For WitE2 development we were lucky to have a working Vistula to Berlin full campaign from quite early on. This has allowed us to address some of the challenges you note.


Can't wait to play! [:)]



RCHarmon -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/27/2021 7:45:24 PM)

Hitlers no fallback orders contributed to the Soviets ability to break out in 1944 and 1945.



gravyhair -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/27/2021 8:43:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Simon Edmonds

By the time of summer of 44 on-wards Hitler's "no retreat" policy had historically bled the Axis forces white. Axis players usually don't get themselves into Stalingrad situations. Try adding the lost forces of the Sixth Army to Army Group Center and see how that effects Operation Bagration.


Yes.



Joel Billings -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/27/2021 10:15:21 PM)

It's very hard to get the system to simulate the Soviet deep battle. I think the situation is better now then it was in WitE1, but you won't get to the Oder in 3 turns as the scenarios is now set up. Changes could be made in the scenario to allow the Soviets to go further on turn 1 (i.e. making sure there are some weak frontline units in some key places). This may not even be unhistorical and it's possible there will be more changes to the VtoB scenario before release. The system probably makes it too easy for the Germans to shift reinforcements in front of the Soviet main thrust. Part of this may be we don't model high command hold fast orders, and we may be too generous with rail capacity and fuel in 45. Certainly there are things that could be done to make a modified scenario or use house rules to get a more realistic scenario. However, even though the Soviets got to the Oder by the start of February, they didn't move on for some time thereafter, and given the current logistics rules that would be an issue for them as well if they managed to get that far. Overall though, the scenario has been playing out very well in our 2 player tests with very historical results (except in the speed of the drive to the Oder).



Sardaukar -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/28/2021 8:17:20 AM)

I can attest that you can get deep breakthroughs in WitE 2. Problem is that you can easily run out of steam and having to wait for supply to catch up.

This is IMHO very realistic.

Vistula to Berlin scenario in WitE 2 is pretty good way train this deep battle thing. Downside is that you don't have the space that for example Ukrainian steppes allow so Germans have lot easier time to form new defensive lines.



Technopiper -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/29/2021 1:08:48 PM)

Hitler's detrimental effects on the German war effort had been wildly exaggerated. That idea was mostly propagated by German Generals to cover up their own fk-ups. All military leaders made mistakes; Hitler certainly had his share but there were times when his "no retreat" orders actually helped the Germans.

The German didn't "defeat themselves", that's just plain German arrogance but somehow became "accepted history" after the war. To quote Robert E. Lee, "I've always thought the Yankees had something to do with it." The Germans were defeated by the Soviets.

I recommend any book by David Glantz or watch this History Round Table held by the US Army "German General's Three Alibis": https://youtu.be/I98P1AxQRUM?t=325



fighterf4u -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/29/2021 2:09:35 PM)

quote:

The German didn't "defeat themselves", that's just plain German arrogance but somehow became "accepted history" after the war. To quote Robert E. Lee, "I've always thought the Yankees had something to do with it." The Germans were defeated by the Soviets.


Absolutely. Eastern Front historiography has developed a lot since the 1960s. Books like Manstein's Lost Victories shouldn't be taken at face value.



wpurdom -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/29/2021 5:34:46 PM)

Hitler's biggest mistake on the Russian front was his semi-genocidal war on the various Soviet peoples. He actually started with a plan to starve to death a big chunk of the population and he didn't even go through the pretence of self-rule through puppets, like in Yugoslavia or the Slovak part of Czechoslovakia.

Given how much success the Germans had in recruiting Hiwis despite these factors, it's hard to imagine how successful they might have been in nourishing anti-Stalinist forces with fewer racist blinders at the top.

It's a notable contrast with approach elsewhere, such as with Vichy France, Slovakia, Croatia, and even the Nordic countries. Doubtless a by-product of his racist views, but why he took one approach with Slovaks and another with Soviet Slavic peoples escapes me.



Technopiper -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (1/30/2021 12:57:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wpurdom
Hitler's biggest mistake on the Russian front was his semi-genocidal war on the various Soviet peoples. He actually started with a plan to starve to death a big chunk of the population and he didn't even go through the pretence of self-rule through puppets, like in Yugoslavia or the Slovak part of Czechoslovakia.

That faithfully reflects how the German people viewed the Slavs as a whole. Chapter XIX "The Red Army" from "The Other Side of the Hill" by Liddell Hart has a nice interview of surviving German generals in which they kindly provided advices on how to deal with the Russian horde. Many of the views are difficult to read under today's sensitivities, but that's just how they honestly think, and perhaps why they are defeated.



Zemke -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (2/2/2021 9:23:26 PM)

In one of my games as the Russians, I remember out running my logistics in the South. This happened because of a breakthrough I made, and the German player started pulling back as fast as possible. So part of it is your opponent and if he chooses to stand and fight or give ground to save troops.



Mishkilji -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (2/28/2021 11:48:31 PM)

Soviets have to win the war of attrition in 1943 and summer of 1944 to set conditions for deep battle in late 44.



king171717 -> RE: Soviet Deep Battle (3/4/2021 3:24:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCHarmon

Hitlers no fallback orders contributed to the Soviets ability to break out in 1944 and 1945.



has more to do with the Russians being able to organized and concentration forces on offensives on the thin German lines (very little depth defense, stretch too thin). Also the Russians fooled German generals like Model that the main attack was coming from Ukraine and hence Model moved the Panzer Divisions out of the area that would of helped with plugging holes. In winter 1942 the Soviets never concentration there forces with the few tanks and art they had and hence grounded down right away by German counter attacks. I recommended reading David Stahel and David Glantz.



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