Question about Galactic Ship Movement (Full Version)

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Cauldyth -> Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 11:27:02 AM)

During the stream, it was commented that you could no longer directly warp to a star system very far away, even if you had enough fuel. Instead, you needed to have stepping-stone systems along the way, which presumably helps to add a sort of galactic "geography" to the game in the same way that nebulae now do.

However, what does this imply for free movement of ships? In DW, you could send your ship to any arbitrary point in space, it didn't have to be a star system. That also allowed you to do things like build deep space listening posts, etc. Is that still possible, or will ships now be restricted to being in star systems when they aren't in warp?



Nilma -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 11:38:00 AM)

Good point. I'm hoping the answer is that ships have a limited jump range and one end of a jump has to be in a system. Limiting ships to traveling between systems only would seem like a backwards step. Loved the rest of the stream though.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 12:40:28 PM)

Yes, there's still free movement, but with hyperdrives having a maximum "jump range" for a single jump now, for longer distances and given some of the geography they may need to use hops through multiple systems to get to the end destination. The entire galaxy including all the space between systems is still available and in fact some of the more unusual locations may be found off the beaten path.



Cauldyth -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 12:41:40 PM)

Awesome, thanks!



Hanekem -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 12:50:24 PM)


So, just to clarify, you have max jump ranges related to the hyperdrive component tech level, but you can still cover as far as your fuel tank can take you as long as you can jump to some point within that range, most likely star systems but not necesarily either? (so I could jump to deep space and then to deep space and then to my target system?)

As an asides, will the hyperdrive component be static or will be of different sizes depending the hull? (that is to say a hyperdrive for a cruiser being bigger than an escort's) or you will keep DW1 fixed Hyperdrive sizes?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 12:56:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanekem
So, just to clarify, you have max jump ranges related to the hyperdrive component tech level, but you can still cover as far as your fuel tank can take you as long as you can jump to some point within that range, most likely star systems but not necesarily either? (so I could jump to deep space and then to deep space and then to my target system?)


Correct in all respects. If you leave it to automatic control, it will use star systems as the "hubs" for those hops.

quote:

As an asides, will the hyperdrive component be static or will be of different sizes depending the hull? (that is to say a hyperdrive for a cruiser being bigger than an escort's) or you will keep DW1 fixed Hyperdrive sizes?


Hyperdrives in general are significantly larger, as are reactors and engines. A lot of component sizes were reviewed and changed, but hyperdrives do not vary in size based on the hull they are in.

Regards,

- Erik




battlefield91 -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 2:09:31 PM)

Just theorycrafting here, but doesn´t this defeat the purpose of bottleneck/chokepoint systems, when you just can jump through deep space and behind the enemy defensive line?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 2:17:10 PM)

That's typically not the shortest route, but certainly if you have the jump range and fuel to do it, it should be possible. If the enemy doesn't have appropriate long range sensors to detect your deep space route and prepare a defense, they might be quite surprised! That's ok and intentional. There will be some cases where the geography makes certain locations very strategic for the positioning of stations, sensors and refueling points, but in other cases many approaches may be viable. It will vary with each galaxy and situation and the techs you have.



Cauldyth -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 4:49:43 PM)

Yeah, I'm already envisioning fun scenarios where you build deep space monitoring stations in the gap between two nebulae, to catch those sneak attacks.

As for the lack of chokepoint systems, or the ability to circumvent them if you're willing to take a more difficult route, that's a good thing in my opinion. That's one of the things with That Other space game that drives me nuts. Galactic conquest should have more in common with island-hopping in the Pacific than with armoured assaults through mountain passes in the Alps.

I welcome the introduction of "space terrain" to make things more interesting, but I'm glad DW2 hasn't gone down the ludicrous route of building Space Castles that prevent enemy fleets from even passing within 10 light years of them without being forced to engage them.



Hanekem -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 5:11:31 PM)


Agreed, coupled with the civilian economy, the lack of choke points means you can use raiders to cause merry hell and also means that the other guy needs to build something other than battlewagons to be able to check, complicate or preempt raiders (and pirates, but I am going to assume past a certain point the big problem are going to be raiders from peer opponents)



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 5:14:37 PM)

So the real question is how is the AI handling all this new routing and such for fleets? In DWU I would watch enemy fleets stop mid jump and change direction only to stop again and split their force and go in two new directions then stop again to reform and go back to their original destination. Same with player fleets set to full AI. Watching them scatter around doing nothing but burning up fuel was amusing but not very productive.



Hanekem -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 5:25:34 PM)

Maybe the fleets had an arrangement with the Caslon/Hydrogen Cartels?

But yeah, I want to see how the AI handles that sort of thing



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 5:32:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanekem

Maybe the fleets had an arrangement with the Caslon/Hydrogen Cartels?

But yeah, I want to see how the AI handles that sort of thing


Yeah fuel shortages would certainly send the AI into a tailspin. I think however this had less to do with poor coding and more to do with the single thread and 32bit architecture simply being too little computational space to do everything it needed to do and a lot of compromises had to be made. Hopefully with the 64bit code allowing the exe to use as many gigs as you have installed and being able to spread the AI load out over multiple cores will allow it to do a much better job.



Larsenex -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 5:58:35 PM)

I can see choke points are more viable in tight clusters where you have groups of stars separated by void spaces. That would make those edge systems very strategic and useful as fortress/barrier areas to your territory.

A galaxy with smooth even distribution of stars would effectively negate the issue mentioned as you have no real choke points.



Cauldyth -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 6:04:30 PM)

Sure, those types of key systems are great - one of your outlying systems fitted with a deep space scanner, and hosting a fleet that can then intercept incoming enemies before they can reach the core systems. That's cool, natural, and a lot of fun!



Galaxy227 -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 8:21:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

That's typically not the shortest route, but certainly if you have the jump range and fuel to do it, it should be possible. If the enemy doesn't have appropriate long range sensors to detect your deep space route and prepare a defense, they might be quite surprised! That's ok and intentional. There will be some cases where the geography makes certain locations very strategic for the positioning of stations, sensors and refueling points, but in other cases many approaches may be viable. It will vary with each galaxy and situation and the techs you have.


This is quite literally one of my favorite changes about the actual gameplay experience of DW2 in comparison to Universe. Such a great idea, I can't wait to play around with it.



ncc1701e -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 8:40:39 PM)

Will it be possible in DW2 to intercept an enemy fleet with hyperdeny devices in the middle of no where meaning between two systems?
Or, will space combat always happen in a system?



Erik Rutins -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 8:46:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
Will it be possible in DW2 to intercept an enemy fleet with hyperdeny devices in the middle of no where meaning between two systems?
Or, will space combat always happen in a system?


Hm, haven't actually tried that yet, but I'll let you know once I do.



OnePercent -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/27/2021 8:57:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Yes, there's still free movement, but with hyperdrives having a maximum "jump range" for a single jump now, for longer distances and given some of the geography they may need to use hops through multiple systems to get to the end destination. The entire galaxy including all the space between systems is still available and in fact some of the more unusual locations may be found off the beaten path.


Omg so kinda like Elite Dangerous? and the galaxy will have terrain making natural flows of travel happening? This is great, but also not as limiting like Stellaris.

This will be fun.



LordMM -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 6:31:07 AM)

I know we have mods in DW-U which reduce the max range of jump drives.

One problem with that was the freighters often ran out of fuel and did not automatically take a small detour and refuel even if a refueling station was nearby. Instead, it turtled slowly towards its destination. Hoping that won't be a problem with DW2



LordMM -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 6:32:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Will it be possible in DW2 to intercept an enemy fleet with hyperdeny devices in the middle of no where meaning between two systems?
Or, will space combat always happen in a system?


That would actually be a brilliant idea. Notice an incoming enemy fleet. Place a hyperdeny in their path and setup an Ambush.



LordMM -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 6:35:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Larsenex

I can see choke points are more viable in tight clusters where you have groups of stars separated by void spaces. That would make those edge systems very strategic and useful as fortress/barrier areas to your territory.

A galaxy with smooth even distribution of stars would effectively negate the issue mentioned as you have no real choke points.



I also wonder if you could hide entire fleets inside Nebulae and other space geological areas. Also, what you said this would be very interesting on a clusters map where you have very few points of entry...



ncc1701e -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 5:18:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordMM


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Will it be possible in DW2 to intercept an enemy fleet with hyperdeny devices in the middle of no where meaning between two systems?
Or, will space combat always happen in a system?


That would actually be a brilliant idea. Notice an incoming enemy fleet. Place a hyperdeny in their path and setup an Ambush.


Yep I am dreaming to do this in DW1 but it seems not possible. Hope DW2 will add this possibility.
Let's wait Erik's feedback.



Sild -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 5:40:28 PM)





quote:

Omg so kinda like Elite Dangerous?


Pretty much. Except in Elite you can't jump to deep space, as far as I know. In this you can.

As far as I understand it, besides the hypertravel speed that improves with tech, now you also have max jump range within one jump. So if before it was a cruise, now its more like hops. Better tech, less hops. Among other improvements that come with tech, probably, like fuel consumption and others.



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 5:42:23 PM)

I was able to intercept fleets in DWU with hyperdeny equipped cap ships. You had to be faster than their fleet then chase them and once in range the hyperdeny would turn on and both you and the ships caught would drop out of warp. Same with intercepting incoming fleets but you had to be positioned perfectly for them to run over your own ships area of effect. Obviously the bigger the blob of cap ships the better the chance of catching them. This should be doable in DW2.



ncc1701e -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 5:56:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness

I was able to intercept fleets in DWU with hyperdeny equipped cap ships. You had to be faster than their fleet then chase them and once in range the hyperdeny would turn on and both you and the ships caught would drop out of warp. Same with intercepting incoming fleets but you had to be positioned perfectly for them to run over your own ships area of effect. Obviously the bigger the blob of cap ships the better the chance of catching them. This should be doable in DW2.


Did you succeed between star systems in deep space?



SirHoraceHarkness -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 6:07:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Did you succeed between star systems in deep space?


Yes. That is where I would either position my fleet for intercept of an incoming fleet or be in the middle of chasing one down. Finicky but doable.



arvcran2 -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 6:08:49 PM)

I was just thinking it would be nice in reality (sci-fi wise) that defending an empire could be very doable and that aggression would be very swiftly quashed by the universal community :).

But gaming wise, conquest is the fun part.



ncc1701e -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 6:27:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SirHoraceHarkness


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Did you succeed between star systems in deep space?


Yes. That is where I would either position my fleet for intercept of an incoming fleet or be in the middle of chasing one down. Finicky but doable.


Thanks, looks like I was unlucky then. Will retry in DW1.



swizzlewizzle -> RE: Question about Galactic Ship Movement (1/28/2021 11:54:28 PM)

Without enforced warp in/out points (like gates/chokepoints), holding an enemy at "border" worlds will always be impossible, since you can just increase your design fuel size to jump through deep space and around.

Instead, it seems that the approach that might work given the current mechanics shown would be the use of fast ships with hyperdeny, backed up by long range sensors catching incoming fleets. Hopefully long range sensors have enough range to cover the dead space between systems so that this is actually possible. :)



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