RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (Full Version)

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821Bobo -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/9/2021 8:51:22 AM)

Erik is right, you don't need to care, AI does it for you. You just have the possibility to tell the system with 2 clicks that all Ju-88(for example) should load those 50kg if you wish.



superian -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/9/2021 10:28:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

You really do not need to care. I've been playing throughout development and have never changed the bomb load, still did well and had plenty of fun.



Mmmm, but it either makes a small difference when playing someone who does - and those add up - or it's meaningless chrome.

Let's say it does matter. So, the game is keeping track of how many of each sort of bomb each squadron has and some bit of the AI / the player options keeps track of what bombs go to which squadrons (if not, it's almost meaningless chrome / there's a series of magic bomb trees!) and there will be a difference if you do that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

no turn gets played more than GC41 Axis T1


Mmmm, I bet you're right.

As I said, I have enormous respect for people who play this, but it would be fascinating to know at what point people give up on the game and never touch it again. 1941 Axis T1 was it for me.



Para87 -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/9/2021 11:00:27 AM)

I'm sure there are plenty of gamers who refrain from playing the game because it hasn't been sufficiently "simplified" to their tastes. The developers have already gone above and beyond to cater to some who want a simplified air-war system.

A line has to drawn somewhere since you can't satisfy everybody after all.




RedLancer -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/9/2021 11:01:28 AM)

quote:



Mmmm, but it either makes a small difference when playing someone who does - and those add up - or it's meaningless chrome.



There are diminishing returns on the benefits of extra tinkering at the detailed end like loadouts, precise altitudes for aircraft and routes to fly specific missions. Anyone willing to devote hours more time to the game will always do better but that is not the point. The fact is some players want the detail and some don't. It is not meaningless chrome if you get enjoyment from the process of finessing.

quote:

As I said, I have enormous respect for people who play this, but it would be fascinating to know at what point people give up on the game and never touch it again. 1941 Axis T1 was it for me.


I presume you mean based on your experience of WitE and not WitE2. GG Games are not for all - I don't play Candy Crush!



EddyBear81 -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/9/2021 12:31:48 PM)

I agree. It does not matter much.

I am one that loves to crunch data
I like to find the most optimal altitude for Me-109 vs Spit... and adapt with each version / context (HF Spit vs G-10, etc.)
Heck, I even have loads of excel spreadsheets calculating where to assign and track support units and how to maximize "Multi" brigades (either in support role or on-map, using the infamous "+1 hex" feature to capture key locations)... I found WiTW air system not detailed enough : I thought the Luftaffe should be able to tell 109s to attack escorts and 190s and 110s to attack bombers.

In the end, I've had my butt kicked more often than not by players who simply had better "intuition" and managed to manoeuver better, planned better, and just surprised me with daring landings or offensives and taking advantage of my blunders.

I asked one of them for his save files. I was amazed of the simplicity of his command structure. I could find dozens of optimizations that only took one turn to implement. No way would that be an efficient war machine by my standards. Some of his planes basically never took off (out of range) !!

He got a major victory.


Bottom line : I like to fiddle with everything. It did not bother my more casual opponents from having a good time.



821Bobo -> Week 4 (2/9/2021 1:53:13 PM)

Turn 4, 13.7.1941

Four new events this week. Once again I suffered from forces shortage in west.

Offensive in Finland started, I am curious how they will do.

And from East Front perspective the most important of these events is that Partisans became active.

My first unit has been assigned to anti-partisan duty. I'll come back to this in a later post but it is worthwhile noting that the entire partisan war is handled in an off-map Theater Box. Depending on how well I do, the main result will be some losses to the anti-partisan forces and variable (but usually small) levels of on-map interdiction.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2591/OqGjT5.jpg[/image]


From the start, Soviets are flying interdiction missions but luckily they are not very effective because currently there is not much what I can do about it.

Most of the Luftwaffe is still in the rear. However I have noticed bombing of railyard in Vitebsk and this is far bigger problem as freight movement depends from them. I have assigned Flak and construction unit to Vitebsk(and few other cities). Assigning construction units to cities costs admin points, Flak is free but removing it later does become a cost.

Since only 15 admin points are received per turn I need to do some thinking about how to spend them is needed. Number one priority is of course building depots but other actions costs points as well, such as assigning construction units to cities, changing not that good generals...

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8310/mFjWRf.jpg[/image]


Weather forecast was correct and is raining on the entire front with exception of Romanian sector.

AGN

Offensive operations in the north continued despite bad weather. First week of rain and light mud in some hexes doesn't have crippling influence on movement, of course clear weather would be preferred.
Panzers pushed north towards Luga river. 16th Army and 18th Army finally catch up with the 4th Panzer Group.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4105/Skhiaj.jpg[/image]


AGC

Not much action in the AGC sector. 3rd Panzer Group isolated Smolensk but most of the 2nd Panzer Group is resting with hope of better weather next week. Otherwise I have just moved few hexes to establish contact with enemy units, flipping hexes and infantry is catching up.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6794/Yli4f2.jpg[/image]


AGS

No real progress in the south either. The Soviets managed to cut off the most exposed divisions but overall the nemy is retreating behind the Dnepr. As in the center, just converted undefended land and waiting for better weather. Most progress have been achieved by Romanians and 11th Army, 50th Infantry Division has reached the gates of Odessa.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6805/oEBDsl.jpg[/image]


All pockets has been finally cleared. In picture below you can see current losses and destroyed Soviet units.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2868/GQV5Jx.jpg[/image]



WM2K -> RE: Week 4 (2/9/2021 8:04:42 PM)

At chrome discussion above. There is a ton of details in WitE that dont really matter to the player and the game could chose to hide. Accounting for every soldier and weapon etc is part of the world building in this game and adds to the epic feel of the game so while sure its just "chrome" it does add the game. You wouldnt fault a game for having world building a story building details and graphics in any other case. In fact they are essential to the experience overall despite just being aesthetic.



821Bobo -> Week 5 (2/12/2021 8:25:14 AM)

Turn 5, 20.7.1941

Finnish liberation of Salmi resulted in Ladoga Karelia region changing ownership. This is driven purely by events but can be influenced by adding(or removing) forces from the appropriate Theatre Boxes.

That RAF Raids event caused some manpower damage in Cologne. Nothing to worry about, yet. In 1944 it will be different story.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6844/VR5wW4.jpg[/image]


As an unpleasant surprise came that Soviets successfully counterattacked at Smolensk, pushing back one Panzer division and restored contact with the city.

Also, in not so good news, it is still raining from Smolensk up to Leningrad.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9540/LK9br9.jpg[/image]


AGN

Soviets did fly lot of interdiction missions over the 4th Panzer Group, they are doing it nearly every turn (in other sectors as well). I have attached Flak to every fast units and they are paying the toll.

During their Air Phase FlaK shot down 185 planes and they suffered another 106 as operational losses.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9646/4zkMht.jpg[/image]

In the north Novgorod was taken but otherwise only small gains.

Railhead finally reached Pskov.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3738/OXAVL3.jpg[/image]


AGC

Around Smolensk there wasn't much action, city was again isolated and divisions from 3rd Panzer Group that were not needed to this task are resting. More to the south, 2nd Panzer Group made breakthrough and 10th Motorized Division reached an undefended Bryansk. Unfortunately not enough movement points were left for entering the city.

4th Army captured Gomel and 2nd Army units that dealt with the Bialistok pocket are marching towards the front lines.

Railhead reached Vitebsk and this will be the main depot here until Smolensk falls.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7711/h83w74.jpg[/image]


AGS

Some good success in the south. 1st Panzer Group have been moving east alongside Dnepr, exploited a sector not covered by Soviet zones of control, and crossed the river. In contrast with north and center it looks like the enemy is suffering from troops shortage in south.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/707/I5Wvpf.jpg[/image]


The unexpected happened on the Black sea coast where Odessa have been found only lightly defended. Opportunity was taken and city successfully stormed. Thats a quite big deal as I won't need to waste troops for siege. I have been already hoarding siege artillery for this task, now will use it probably at Smolensk.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3512/ihyORi.jpg[/image]


This week air losses were very favorable. Only few fighters lost but lot of Soviet planes flying ground support missions were shot down.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1408/4wjK4s.jpg[/image]


My top pilots/aces. To bad that the top two are no more.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1737/J2atfS.jpg[/image]



Wuffer -> RE: Week 5 (2/12/2021 5:36:01 PM)

That's quite fast all over the map so far. In chess terms one could give you nearly an astonishing extra tempo. Blame Guderian for Smolensk! IIRC he grapped the best Panzer III's for himself and let the Pz.I's for the others...

Surprise at Odessa. Your railhead is already there, but would the harbour helped otherwise?
How is your supply situation on the other side of the Dnepr?

Harsh attrition in the air. One third of your top aces is down, but OMG this will become difficult for the poor russian fighter pilots in the years to come.



821Bobo -> RE: Week 5 (2/12/2021 6:27:52 PM)

Yes, so far I advanced fast but tempo is slowing down now.
Supply situation is overall good and my panzers have usually around 40+ MPs, however those that were under attack only around 20. It is definitely worth for Soviets to sacrifice some virtual soldiers and bog down panzers.

Odessa of course can be supplied by sea but only port in Black sea is Constanca. And I am not sure if it is enough to keep Odessa supplied.



cartman101 -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/13/2021 7:34:32 PM)

One thing I'm kinda "meh" about is the control not automatically changing for isolated territories with no enemies in them. Will we at least get additional rear echelon type units that will follow the main thrust? Or will the base security units be all that's available?



821Bobo -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/13/2021 8:26:28 PM)

Only the base security units, and they are anyway needed in the Garrison TB to keep partisans under control. So in reality you will need to use normal infantry units(or whatever you will have on hand) to flip big chunk of territories(like the marches).
Personally I think this is better approach than the auto convert in WitE.



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/14/2021 6:12:22 PM)

Is the giant Lvov pocket still possible by diverting elements from AGC to AGS on turn 1?



821Bobo -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/14/2021 6:39:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Is the giant Lvov pocket still possible by diverting elements from AGC to AGS on turn 1?


I don't think so but I never tried it. Did quick test and this is furthest you can get with Guderian's Panzers.


[image]local://upfiles/37518/71BC3EC2E5B84F80931FF2A831A7667B.jpg[/image]



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Panzers vs The Bear: A WitE2 MP AAR (Axis Perspective) (2/14/2021 7:49:54 PM)

quote:

I don't think so but I never tried it. Did quick test and this is furthest you can get with Guderian's Panzers.



Thanks, appreciate the quick test.



821Bobo -> Week 6 (2/16/2021 6:56:31 AM)

Turn 6, 27.7.1941

This is second consecutive turn without negative events from Theater boxes, seems the situation did stabilise. However the same applies for the Soviets.

AGN

Thanks to the Peipus lake around 10 Soviet divisions ended in pocket. One regiment crossed the Luga, as there was no defense in place. However only one regiment holding the bridgehead won't be enough.
In Estonia enemy is delaying with only few units and it is surprisingly effective (I am sure Tim doesn't see it this way).

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2586/0guOl7.jpg[/image]


AGC

Smolensk has not been relieved this week but Soviets are resupplying the fortress by air using around 100 Li-2. Some have been shot down but I need to bring more Bf-109 into the fight. I have a bad feeling that the Smolensk fortress will manage to tie up many of my infantry.

Both Panzer groups made some gains in bad terrain but nothing spectacular. At least reaching the open terrain east of Bryansk is promising.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1968/Y1pOip.jpg[/image]


AGS

In the south Panzers unleashed from the small bridgehead, taking Poltava. I am using the rivers to cover my flanks as at this point a single regiment is no match for Soviet counterattacks.

Now I am not sure if I should go north to help Guderian or towards the Donbass.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/707/Gl8gZ3.jpg[/image]


Next week, according to the forecast, rain again. Can only hope for compensation in winter and fewer weeks with Blizzard.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6025/FHRodW.jpg[/image]


This shows the evolution of the OOB since the war start. Soviet strength is climbing up and already they have more men in field then they had on June 22nd. I used only 'on map' filter but there are lot of other options in the Metrics screen.
[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8636/mL3NEE.jpg[/image]



MAS -> RE: Week 6 (2/16/2021 1:46:38 PM)

Questions please: 1) Is AGN's FBD in Pskov acting as a 'super depot' with 18th Army HQ? 2) Where are AGC's FBD's at? 3) Did GloriousRuse leave the Dnepr undefended between Kiev and Cherkassy?

It looks like 6th Army could pocket Kiev by itself, with plenty of time left to get the 6 bonus points. It will be fascinating to see GloriousRuse's reaction on this whole front.

For your part, I can't see 1st PzGrp being able to extend much farther north towards Guderian both because of logistical distance to rails, and it's flanks extending from weak to really weak. Thanks for your AARs!



MAS -> RE: Week 6 (2/16/2021 1:51:40 PM)

Sorry, thought of another quick question. In the Metrics screenshot, is the Soviet manpower # true, or is there FOW involved? Foreign Armies East was notoriously poor at prognosticating Soviet strength. Thanks!



821Bobo -> RE: Week 6 (2/16/2021 2:51:29 PM)

1) Yes, army(or group HQ) are doubling depot capacity
2) Vitebsk and Gomel
3) Yes he surrounded the Dnepr bridgehead with all the units that were previously more north

And the manpower # should be accurate



EddyBear81 -> RE: Week 6 (2/17/2021 6:14:34 AM)

I always found it weird that the enemy # numbers are 100% accurate. It takes away a key FoW / intel aspect of the war, ie. underestimation of Soviet forces by OKH (as MAS mentioned)

Could there be a level of randomization added ?



loki100 -> RE: Week 6 (2/17/2021 8:34:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EddyBear81

I always found it weird that the enemy # numbers are 100% accurate. It takes away a key FoW / intel aspect of the war, ie. underestimation of Soviet forces by OKH (as MAS mentioned)

Could there be a level of randomization added ?


It doesn't really tell you that much, in that the numbers can mask a lot of variables. If I recall (& I'm going by Erikson's older work here) FHEE were actually pretty good at getting the numbers right, what the Germans got wrong was the capacity?

For the Soviet player, I track the Axis reserve as it gives me a rough feel for build up and how they are refitting. But again its worth remembering that the Soviets had first rate intelligence on the German war production. There were a lot of Communists among the (involuntary) workforce and the NKVD put a lot of emphasis on things like identification numbers being passed out - this allowed the Soviets to estimate destruction rates pretty accurately. So knowing that a factory had received a plane with a set of part numbers to repair could tell you a lot.

They passed some of this to British statisticians who used it to estimate how many Tigers the Germans really had (as opposed to the claims in combat reports) and their estimate was only a few out of the actual number when checked post war.



Bozo_the_Clown -> RE: Week 6 (2/18/2021 4:52:35 PM)

I am very skeptical about this. This looks a lot like the nonsense that happens in WitE1. Reaching Poltava on turn 6 is simply absurd. In the real war, the Germans got barely past Kharkov. If the logistic system is so much improved in WitE2, why is something like this even possible?



821Bobo -> Week 7 (2/19/2021 4:33:18 PM)

Turn 7, 03.8.1941

During their move, the enemy launched series of attacks, routed one SS brigade and that regiment which crossed Luga and pushed back multiple other units, even a stack of Panzer and Motorized division. Only positive from this sequence is over 500 Soviet planes shot down during these attacks for loss of 18 mine's.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8745/qYYsud.jpg[/image]

2nd Panzer Group has been severely beaten and cut off. An operational break is needed.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3398/cKgF3D.jpg[/image]


AGN

This week only very limited advance in all sectors.

Rain in north. Most effort was aimed at eliminating the pocket and that goal have been mostly fulfilled.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9819/8OSeNM.jpg[/image]


AGC

3rd Panzer Group is resting, 2nd Panzer Group too but due to the lack of infantry I can't pull them from contact line.

2nd Army is gathering around Smolensk and getting ready to storm the city.

I finally managed to move Luftwaffe to the front (and secure supplies for them) as can be seen in the screenshot.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3794/lo44HG.jpg[/image]


AGS

Only small gains in south too. Notable events were isolating Kiev and a small pocket at Krivoi Rog. I did bother with it only because 3 cavalry divisions routed there so that is one less cavalry corps in winter.

1st Mountain Division reached the gates of Dnepropetrovsk just to find out enemy turned the city to yet another fortress.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4480/kaOJU2.jpg[/image]

Due to the considerable Soviet resistance in the north and around Smolensk, resulting in railheads reaching the front lines, I decided to use new game feature - 'super depot' at Pskov and Vitebsk. Quoting the manual

quote:

In addition if a NKPS or FBD rail repair unit spends the entire turn (and uses no movement points) on a depot then this will greatly increase freight deliveries to that depot in the next logistics phase. Note that this may reduce the allocation to nearby depots as it ensures the chosen depot has priority for deliveries.


While other depots received only between 6000 and 10000 tons of freight, Pskov and Vitebsk gained nearly 30000 tons.

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9378/1U0510.jpg[/image]



MAS -> RE: Week 7 (2/19/2021 6:01:47 PM)

Hello and thank you! A few questions please:

1) I don't see an FBD stacked with 18th Army at Pskov. Is this because you can "attach" it to the depot, thereby taking it off the map?

2) I can't see the stack at Vitebsk, but it appears the FBD may be stacked with the 9th Army HQ to create a 'super depot' there?

3) Your last screenshot shows that the 29,948 tons of freight received is only 74% of requirements. So despite it's 'super depot' status, is it still inadequate for all the formations that may be using Vitebsk as a source? 3a) And even then, due to the distance, the receiving formations are having to use 13,358 of their own trucks to move supply to the front? 3b) It shows 2,954 tons of freight lost (10% of received!). Is this due to VVS attacks? And if so, is it interdiction or rail marshalling yard missions, or is this just standard "friction"?

4) Can you give us an idea of PzGrp2's supply situation (maybe a screenshot)? Since they were temporarily cut off, and the lead division is approximately 280 miles from Vitebsk, I would think their fuel tanks are about empty. Earlier in this thread you had mentioned your other AGC FBD was at Gomel, so I'm not sure what that distance is.

Thanks much!



rmeckman -> RE: Week 7 (2/19/2021 6:27:30 PM)

I continue to be confused about how railyard capacity is represented in WiTE2. In turn 7 the Vitebsk railyard is shown as having a capacity of Rail 9800 : 4900. Its nominal capacity is 4900 tons/week, but the phasing player actually gets 9800 tons/week to use during the current turn. Is there a real-world logistics advantage that is being simulated by making the actual capacity double the nominal capacity? Does this doubling of capacity ever disappear? The most recent version of WiTW also shows this doubling even though the codes for the games forked some years back.



821Bobo -> RE: Week 7 (2/19/2021 7:11:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MAS

Hello and thank you! A few questions please:

1) I don't see an FBD stacked with 18th Army at Pskov. Is this because you can "attach" it to the depot, thereby taking it off the map?

2) I can't see the stack at Vitebsk, but it appears the FBD may be stacked with the 9th Army HQ to create a 'super depot' there?

3) Your last screenshot shows that the 29,948 tons of freight received is only 74% of requirements. So despite it's 'super depot' status, is it still inadequate for all the formations that may be using Vitebsk as a source? 3a) And even then, due to the distance, the receiving formations are having to use 13,358 of their own trucks to move supply to the front? 3b) It shows 2,954 tons of freight lost (10% of received!). Is this due to VVS attacks? And if so, is it interdiction or rail marshalling yard missions, or is this just standard "friction"?

4) Can you give us an idea of PzGrp2's supply situation (maybe a screenshot)? Since they were temporarily cut off, and the lead division is approximately 280 miles from Vitebsk, I would think their fuel tanks are about empty. Earlier in this thread you had mentioned your other AGC FBD was at Gomel, so I'm not sure what that distance is.

Thanks much!


1. No, you can't attach it to depot. Axis logistic is after Soviet movement so the FBD must be sitting in hex during your previous movement phase(in this case T6). As I already cleared the rail I moved it forward from Pskov but the effect of supply boost is this turn.

2. FBD is still in Vitebsk but under the army HQ counter therefore not very visible. Those AOGs over the stack doesn't help too.

3. Yes but I gave Panzers supply priority 4, other formations have lower therefore mobile units got enough.
You lose some freight to standard friction, partisans causing losses as well and interdiction too.

4. Guderian is supplied from Minsk and Vitebsk. Those cut off units have around 50% of fuel from previous week as I did not burn all. Screenshot shows from where is 900 Lehr pulling supply.

edited point 4

[image]local://upfiles/37518/7A834FC3FD074F79887ED30EE65A9BA3.jpg[/image]



Nix77 -> RE: Week 6 (2/19/2021 8:41:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

I am very skeptical about this. This looks a lot like the nonsense that happens in WitE1. Reaching Poltava on turn 6 is simply absurd. In the real war, the Germans got barely past Kharkov. If the logistic system is so much improved in WitE2, why is something like this even possible?


I share Bozo's concerns... Bryansk and Poltava this early in August? There's definitely some fine-tuning to be done still?



MAS -> RE: Week 7 (2/19/2021 10:44:14 PM)

Thanks Robert!



MAS -> RE: Week 7 (2/19/2021 10:50:07 PM)

I believe it's due to the presence of the 9th army HQ and an FBD creating a "super depot", but I'm just guessing based on what I think I've read in these posts. I don't understand how a 9800 tons freight capacity can actually receive 29,948 tons.



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