Yamato and Mushashi (Full Version)

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Hellsenstrat -> Yamato and Mushashi (2/19/2021 6:22:27 PM)

So anyone know why these ships are in construction in the game when both had been launched before the start of the war? Thats a lot of resources going to build something that was already built I could see having them arrive as TF for when the were commissioned or went to active combat (even here Yamato was commissioned by Dec 1941). Only thing we could come up with was to keep Japan players from accelerating all the CV's.



RangerJoe -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/19/2021 6:29:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellsenstrat

. . . Only thing we could come up with was to keep Japan players from accelerating all the CV's.


Who is "we?"

As far as accelerating the CVs, the Japanese can do that anyway.



RangerJoe -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/19/2021 6:49:33 PM)

When a ship is launched, it still is not complete. A warship, even more so. You have the hull, the deck, the engines and such engineering spaces completed. But the topside and other equipment is not yet installed much less any dinner plates and beverage glasses for the crew to use. No food is aboard nor fuel, nor ammo. Nor any important papers. [sm=Crazy-1271.gif] [sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]

Are you going to have the crew pick up the main gun turrets, which individually weigh more than a Fletcher class destroyer, then have the crew move them onto the ship and install them? Those Navy types maybe know how to use them and make some repairs but I seriously doubt if the crew could actually do such a job without any shipyard installations, much less so when they are on their way to a port far, far away. Even with the guns installed and everything loaded, you still need to test everything and do some gunnery trials and sea trials.



GetAssista -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/19/2021 6:51:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellsenstrat
So anyone know why these ships are in construction in the game when both had been launched before the start of the war?

If you read the history in a bit more detail you will see that both ships were battle ready exactly at the dates that are in the GC scenario, not earlier. Launch is not "battle ready", there is a whole lot of additional construction, ironing out, training and trials to do.



RhinoDad -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/19/2021 6:58:57 PM)

A launched ship is not finished being built. Generally that is just the time which it can be put in the water to clear the yard dry docks for work on another ship while the one launched is then completed being built while afloat (fitted out). Sometimes after commissioning work can still be ordered.

Yamato was commissioned in Mid December ’41 so most construction would not have been completed until then. However, it was not considered operable by IJN until mid ’42 when it was placed into service.

Musashi was under construction and not completed and commissioned until mid/late ’42. She was not considered operational by IJN until end of ‘42

Ships probably not given to player as soon as building is completed/commissioned to stop player from immediately using ship which was not avail to IJN until well after war started. As game engine does not stop gamey play it does try to give a historical feel. Giving the Japanese player access to these ships earlier would be a-historical.

As I have not played Japanese player not sure what condition it is after commission date nor the cost of getting ship ready for combat; but should be costing construction costs until commission. Also do not know what date ships become available to player. There are plenty of ways the game could balance this out so that it all works out in end. Somewhat like December 7th Pearl Harbour attack, abstracted but does a good job reflecting historical reality.



RangerJoe -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/19/2021 7:06:58 PM)

When you get the ships, they are ready to use. No shakedown cruises nor gunnery drills needed nor repairs to fix what was not done correctly in the first place. They come full of fuel and ammo.



Hellsenstrat -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/19/2021 9:19:37 PM)

I agree that launching isn't finished building but when a ship is commissioned construction is complete there may still be sea trials and training, but those wouldn't take enough HI and shipyard points to build a aircraft carrier....
To keep the date of battle readiness is why I said to have it show up as a TF on the date needed.

Mushahi is different but was farther along then the pts needed was my statement because they Majority of construction had been completed and fitting out was only thing left.



BBfanboy -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/19/2021 11:06:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellsenstrat

I agree that launching isn't finished building but when a ship is commissioned construction is complete there may still be sea trials and training, but those wouldn't take enough HI and shipyard points to build a aircraft carrier....
To keep the date of battle readiness is why I said to have it show up as a TF on the date needed.

Mushahi is different but was farther along then the pts needed was my statement because they Majority of construction had been completed and fitting out was only thing left.

Not sure what your intention is in continuing this discussion. You get the ships on the date advertised, with possible acceleration if you are willing to make the sacrifices for that to happen. But the game is not being tweaked by the developers any more so asking for different starting costs or timing is not going to happen. IMO, just go with how it is programed and make the best of what you get when you get it. There are enough operational things to deal with in the game without delving that deep into administrative details (to no tangible effect).



GetAssista -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/19/2021 11:27:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellsenstrat
I agree that launching isn't finished building but when a ship is commissioned construction is complete there may still be sea trials and training, but those wouldn't take enough HI and shipyard points to build a aircraft carrier....



[image]local://upfiles/32892/B3B868AB64CC4D209F2320EFEB7298B4.jpg[/image]



RangerJoe -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/20/2021 12:20:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellsenstrat
I agree that launching isn't finished building but when a ship is commissioned construction is complete there may still be sea trials and training, but those wouldn't take enough HI and shipyard points to build a aircraft carrier....



[image]local://upfiles/32892/B3B868AB64CC4D209F2320EFEB7298B4.jpg[/image]


+1



Alfred -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/20/2021 12:42:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hellsenstrat

So anyone know why these ships are in construction in the game when both had been launched before the start of the war? Thats a lot of resources going to build something that was already built I could see having them arrive as TF for when the were commissioned or went to active combat (even here Yamato was commissioned by Dec 1941). Only thing we could come up with was to keep Japan players from accelerating all the CV's.


You are fundamentally not understanding the game design philosophy.

1. There is no actual ship construction in AE.

2. Post 7 December 1941 ships are abstracted to arrive in game when they became available for operations in the PTO.

3. The Allied player has no input into the future ship abstraction other than choosing variable reinforcement. Then he still doesn't have any say as to when the ships arrive but has to accept that some may come early and some later than was the historical caqse.

4. The Japanese player pays only a fraction of the cost involved in commissioning a ship. It is a game design gift to the Japanese player.

5. In keeping with the game philosophy of providing as much player choice as possible, at the cost of industrial outputs the Japanese player can prioritise his expenditures on accelerating particular ships.

6. Even if the dev coders were still active (almost 12 years after the release of AE), they would never, under any circumstances, excise the arrival of post 7 December 1941 Japanese ships from the ship construction abstraction by placing the ships in a future arriving task force. That would be both gifting the Japanese player extra industrial outputs and depriving him of choice. The player who doesn't want the Yamatos would be forced to have them if they were to come in their own unique task force.

Alfred



geofflambert -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/20/2021 1:38:23 AM)

Yes, WitP-AE is already launched, commissioned, shook out, painted, been on maneuvers, battle tested and repainted.



spence -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/20/2021 2:18:40 AM)

"Shattered Sword" and CombinedFleet.com indicate that the HIJMS YAMATO was only ready for active operations on 27 May 1942. It would seem that that ship is given to the Japanese Player 6 months early (and with the experience like they had somehow participated in the pre-war training exercises and war against China like the older ships) Apparently it failed its test of long range gunnery at the end of March 1942. Same goes for Musashi except that the ready for active operations date is either 3 September or 8 September depending whether or not one wants radar or not (Type 21 radar installed/tested between 3-8 September 1942).



Chris21wen -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/20/2021 6:57:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

Yes, WitP-AE is already launched, commissioned, shook out, painted, been on maneuvers, battle tested and repainted.




.... and refitted.



Hellsenstrat -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/20/2021 5:10:28 PM)

Thanks Alfred see that makes sense to me I was looking at from a construction point of view I was just wondering why it was that way. From that point of view changes things



PaxMondo -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/23/2021 3:49:33 AM)

Well, and the Yamato itself is a total gift to the IJ players. As noted above, she came into service in Dec 41 BUT it was quickly found that she had significant issues with her main battery. Those were not resolved until May 42. HOWEVER, this information was not widely available at the time the devs were putting the game together, so they stayed with the original in service date of Dec 41 ... a definite gift to the IJ players.

That is why many mods have the Yamato arrive in Dec 41 but without main battery until an upgrade in May 42. ....



Randy Stead -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/23/2021 4:07:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

Well, and the Yamato itself is a total gift to the IJ players. As noted above, she came into service in Dec 41 BUT it was quickly found that she had significant issues with her main battery. Those were not resolved until May 42. HOWEVER, this information was not widely available at the time the devs were putting the game together, so they stayed with the original in service date of Dec 41 ... a definite gift to the IJ players.

That is why many mods have the Yamato arrive in Dec 41 but without main battery until an upgrade in May 42. ....


I sense a house rule in the offing, or do some players already have house rules to take this into account? As a new player, hoping to get my brother into the game, I feel it would not be a nice thing to Yamato him before historical time. I can see us adopting a house rule for Yamato's appearance in a PBEM long campaign.



Kull -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/23/2021 4:22:28 AM)

Well, it can be seen as a mixed blessing. Yes you have it earlier, but using it means sucking up a lot of fuel. Especially if you don't use the AKE cheat and have to run it back to the only bases able to re-arm it.

Maybe not even any sort of blessing at all....



LargeSlowTarget -> RE: Yamato and Mushashi (2/23/2021 5:57:59 AM)

Just to put things in perspective - the Allies get hundreds of gifts because many many ships become available on map in the game at dates which correspond not to the date the ship was considered operational or on the commissioning date - but on their launching date or even on the date their keel has been laid! That translates into weeks, months and sometimes even years earlier. Not counting the ships that should have a withdrawal date but don't have one - like USS Nevada. Note that I'm not critisizing the devs and scenario designers, I know how difficult and time consuming it is to search and enter data for hundreds and thousands of ships.



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