BELGIUM Feedback (Full Version)

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ClaudeJ -> BELGIUM Feedback (2/19/2021 10:56:56 PM)

Hey there,

here are a few suggestions regarding the Belgian equipment and units.
Thanks for that DLC, it's quite uncommon to have the opportunity to enjoy them in a wargame. ;)

Aircraft

- ID 168: The Alpha Jet's height is 4.2, rather than 2.5 (same for the French Alpha Jet, ID 150, and the German one, ID15)
- ID 169: The F-84F carried 127mm HVAR Rocket (377), instead of the FFAR rockets. It could also drop Napalm
- ID 171: Mirage 5BA was operational in CAS role from the 5th of March 1972. It could drop 2 iron bombs, or 2 cluster bombs, or napalm, plus 2 rocket pods or 2 Sidewinders
- The 06 of May 1980, the 349 Sqn. became the first NATO squadron ops on the F-16A on the 7th of January 1981. Block 5 and 10, probably the same as the Dutch.

Sources :
Mirage 5 Pilots Association, Mirage 5B
Van Haute, André. De Republic F-84F Thunderstreak In dienst bij de Belgische Luchtmacht
https://www.ailes-militaires-belges.be/


Units

- All versions of the AIFV equipped the Mech infantry from September 1985.

- ID 1104 AIFV MILAN Carrier: does
have a 12.7mm HMG on a cupola weapon station, used by the Commander, with 1200 rounds.
have 6 smoke pot launchers
have two 71mm Lyran mortar firing illumination bombs each with 7 bombs
have one Milan firing post with 8 missiles. It can be fired from the vehicle or dismounted on a tripod. It's served by an operator and two ammunition bearers.

- ID 1114 AIFV-B APC :
actually is the PC (Command Post, HQ) version
have a 12.7mm HMG used by the Commander, with 1200 rounds.
have two 71mm Lyran mortar firing illumination bombs each with 7 bombs

- ID 1115 AIFV-B-25 IFV:
the 25mm KBA-B02 Autocannon have 180 rounds ready to fire and 147 in reserve
the 7.62mm Coax MG have 230 rounds ready and 1610 in reserve
have 5 smoke pot launchers

An AIFV-B Mech Inf Platoon consists of 3 * ID 1115 AIFV-B-25 IFV and 1 * ID 1104 AIFV MILAN Carrier (the AIFV MILAN is the vehicle of the platoon's commander)

An AIFV Mech Inf Company consists of 3 * AIFV-B Mech Inf Platoon, 1 * AIFV-B ATk (Anti-Tanks) Platoon of 4 1104 AIFV MILAN Carrier, and 1 AIFV-B HQ of 2*ID 1114 AIFV-B PC.
The company also has three M-113 A1 vehicles for the QM and Medic.

Sources :
Demaret Henri, L'AIFV en service à la Force Terrestre Belge.
Mavournel Jean-Philippe, L'arme blindée belge de 1946 à aujourd'hui


Cheers



nikolas93TS -> RE: BELGIUM Feedback (2/28/2021 6:18:56 PM)

Bonsoir JanMasters0n, merci beaucoup pour votre aide!

1) Aircraft height is rarely exact in game, except for helicopters. Usually in sources it is given for parked aircraft with landing gear down and also includes tail, hence in-game smaller aircraft like trainers are arbitrarily given values of 2.5-3m as they tend to have smaller profiles as targets, particularly frontally.

2) If F-84F was not using 2.75" FFAR rockets, is it known in what configuration were 5" rockets carried? 2x2 racks on each wing, or possibly 2x3 racks?

3) As for Mirage 5BA I have 8ème escadrille being activated on 15/07/1970, and first aircraft being accepted 15 days later. It took another year for 42ème escadrille to be re-trained (switched to Mirage 5 on 30/6/1971) and by March 1972 four squadrons were ready. So, I think it is safe to keep the current date, as one would assume that in case of hostilities all available planes would be pressed into active service.

Re: Sidewinders, I didn't include them because in-game aircraft carries represent maximized A-G combat load: centerline pylon with 2 bombs, additional 2 bombs on inboard hardpoints (usually loaded with drop tanks), and outboard hardpoints with 7-rocket FFAR pods. I was told Sidewinders were rarely mounted in peacetime as there were not enough of them, and since Belgians never purchased RPK-10 fuel tank/bomb racks there is not enough hardpoints to mount them without sacrificing A-G ordinance (unless Belgian made bomb racks could carry more than two bombs).

4) I tried to avoid adding F-16A until Dutch forced me to do so as they standardized on single aircraft type by 1991. The premise is that pure-bred fighters would be hard-pressed into air combat in case Cold War went hot, that is why there are no F-15s, F-16s, MiG-29s etc. even if they were perfectly capable of performing A-G missions.

Ground units:

So, AIFV-B (turretless) was not produced from 1982? And no mixed platoons like they are currently in game? Even better if both formation types were used.

Also, do you have any information on platoon command team size riding in AIFV MILAN? Is it possible that organization of from 1990s for example? Since it is a big change, I would like to be sure.



ClaudeJ -> RE: BELGIUM Feedback (2/28/2021 9:10:36 PM)

Roger about #1.


quote:


2) If F-84F was not using 2.75" FFAR rockets, is it known in what configuration were 5" rockets carried? 2x2 racks on each wing, or possibly 2x3 racks?

i'll get back to you with pictures and details.

quote:

3) As for Mirage 5BA I have 8ème escadrille being activated on 15/07/1970, and first aircraft being accepted 15 days later. It took another year for 42ème escadrille to be re-trained (switched to Mirage 5 on 30/6/1971) and by March 1972 four squadrons were ready. So, I think it is safe to keep the current date, as one would assume that in case of hostilities all available planes would be pressed into active service.


The 8th was a training unit, maned by the pilots who have been converted onto the Mirage by the French, in France. It wasn't a combat unit and the Mirage were the BD type, dual trainer. I don't think they would have been pressed into combat, or maybe into the (nuclear) strike role.


quote:

(...)even if they were perfectly capable of performing A-G missions.

As far as I know, the Block 5 and 10 were not, A-G capabilities came with the Block 15 revision.
Roger on the reasoning. Just so you know that if it fits into the narrative, there were Belgian F-16A too.

quote:


So, AIFV-B (turretless) was not produced from 1982? And no mixed platoons like they are currently in game? Even better if both formation types were used.


As far as I know, and have read, the AIFV PC (.50 only) never were intended to be used alone, as APC.
A prototype was presented to the public at the military parade for the national day, the 21st of july 1982. In August 1982n, two AIFV Milan prototypes were tested and approved for production. Then the production, plan is 20 to 25 five per month, both AIFV and M113 until 1988.
The total of produced per type is :
228 AIFV C25,
230 AIFV Milan
48 AIFV PC

Given that it was a doctrinal change to have C25 and Milan, it doesn't make much sense to press into service a .50 version alone, with all the logistical and operational burden that it implies.

quote:


Also, do you have any information on platoon command team size riding in AIFV MILAN? Is it possible that organization of from 1990s for example? Since it is a big change, I would like to be sure.


At platoon level the "HQ" section is the Platoon commander, the radioman, the XO, the driver, plus the Milan team. In the '90, during the "peace mission", the Milan was valued at platoon level thanks to its excellent optic.
I am not aware that the organization might have been different. If I ever find my old manuals, I'll get back to you.

Cheers



nikolas93TS -> RE: BELGIUM Feedback (2/28/2021 10:28:16 PM)

Ahh, thank you providing production numbers. Most English sources talk about Belgian order as being half APC, half IFV.

So, I will rename AIFV-B as AIFV-PC and use it as HQ vehicle, AIFV MILAN availability will be moved to August-September 1982 instead of 1985, and I will change platoon command team to 5 men (I have to leave 2 on vehicle) with MILAN launcher (I would assume 3-men team). I only had manuals from 1950s and 1960s and had to orient myself on those. I welcome Belgians getting ATGMs in mechanized units.

But when should AIFV-B Mech Inf Platoon and Company be introduced? Has C25 version started production in October 1984 and declared operational in September 1985?

Do you possibly have anything on M113 equipped battalions and did they also adopted MILAN on platoon level? AMX-VTT too, while they were being phased out, one never know.

P.S I will then move Mirage V to July 1971 as earliest.



ClaudeJ -> RE: BELGIUM Feedback (3/1/2021 5:24:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: nikolas93TS

Ahh, thank you providing production numbers. Most English sources talk about Belgian order as being half APC, half IFV.

So, I will rename AIFV-B as AIFV-PC and use it as HQ vehicle, AIFV MILAN availability will be moved to August-September 1982 instead of 1985, and I will change platoon command team to 5 men (I have to leave 2 on vehicle) with MILAN launcher (I would assume 3-men team). I only had manuals from 1950s and 1960s and had to orient myself on those. I welcome Belgians getting ATGMs in mechanized units.

But when should AIFV-B Mech Inf Platoon and Company be introduced? Has C25 version started production in October 1984 and declared operational in September 1985?

Do you possibly have anything on M113 equipped battalions and did they also adopted MILAN on platoon level? AMX-VTT too, while they were being phased out, one never know.

P.S I will then move Mirage V to July 1971 as earliest.



I'll have to check another book at home about the C25 production.

All AIFV equipped Mech Inf Bn were also equipped with the M113A1. They were used instead of the specialized variants of the AIFV, unlike the Dutch. They were used for Ambulance, Recovery, Maintenance and Mortar if I recall correctly.

quote:

MILAN launcher (I would assume 3-men team)
Correct.



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