RE: TOEs question (Full Version)

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Hanny -> RE: TOEs question (2/26/2021 2:27:58 PM)

I am without a pc with internet due to moving so only have the wife’s I pad, and posting links is beyond me on the I pad so more detailed stiff will have to wait till April when we exchange, do you have NARA online access? For instance it holds digital copies of all the First Panzer Div documents taken by at end of war to USA, and you can read online or download you also have the German Documents in Russia website for those taken by Russia if you don’t have it already.



Great_Ajax -> RE: TOEs question (2/26/2021 2:49:42 PM)

I've pulled NARA rolls from Sturmpanzer, KSTNs from wwiidaybyday and have used the Russian site as well. Axis History Forums is a great place to get me started in areas of research as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

I am without a pc with internet due to moving so only have the wife’s I pad, and posting links is beyond me on the I pad so more detailed stiff will have to wait till April when we exchange, do you have NARA online access? For instance it holds digital copies of all the First Panzer Div documents taken by at end of war to USA, and you can read online or download you also have the German Documents in Russia website for those taken by Russia if you don’t have it already.




Light4bettor -> RE: TOEs question (2/27/2021 1:38:24 AM)

Hanny,

Your info on production numbers has piqued my interest (and signaled a more critical look at some of Askey's info);

I would like to begin looking at some primary german / soviet sources : any heads-up on where to start?

I gather NARA (which I've visited but have no clue / still learning how to navigate online...): is it possible to view some of the NARA docs online?

Any other that you might recommend? I've seen something called "Digital History Archive," they want 20-35 dollars (each) for sets of primary docs which they got from NARA, I'd rather not pay them if its something I can find myself.

http://www.digitalhistoryarchive.com/wwii-german-records.html

The only primary source I own is Kriegstagebuch des OKW 1940-45.(Percy E Schramm)



Hanny -> RE: TOEs question (2/27/2021 7:36:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I've pulled NARA rolls from Sturmpanzer, KSTNs from wwiidaybyday and have used the Russian site as well. Axis History Forums is a great place to get me started in areas of research as well

In the future I’ll post you links for search portals, in case you missed some.

You have mined the online material from Combined Arms Research Library (CARL) and It’s associated links I assume,(Office of the Historian, CSI, Fort Leavenworth ) along with UK National Archives, HMSO Official History series series, Fighting with Numbers has a lot of data in one place, and have access to JSTOR and Fold3 along with Internet Archive as a search portal. Most War Colleges and Universities have thesis published online from the course they teach, many authors first book is built on their thesis so you get that for free online, Collassal Cracks is one example, associated to that is the online required reading material that comes from the course being taken, some have a source packet to download with your reading requirements if it’s an online course, so you can see what literature is being used as teaching material. Have you considered contacting your local University etc for research privileges, you may need to take a course but it will open up free research rights, NARA rolls a viable online are but a fraction of those a viable to researchers if you have the access rights.

Endless ways to find stuff for free on the net, Hyperwar etc.

Official Histories are not so easy to find online so you have to get them hard copy,but worth the time.





Hanny -> RE: TOEs question (2/27/2021 7:49:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Hanny,

Your info on production numbers has piqued my interest (and signaled a more critical look at some of Askey's info);

I would like to begin looking at some primary german / soviet sources : any heads-up on where to start?

I gather NARA (which I've visited but have no clue / still learning how to navigate online...): is it possible to view some of the NARA docs online?

Any other that you might recommend? I've seen something called "Digital History Archive," they want 20-35 dollars (each) for sets of primary docs which they got from NARA, I'd rather not pay them if its something I can find myself.

http://www.digitalhistoryarchive.com/wwii-german-records.html

The only primary source I own is Kriegstagebuch des OKW 1940-45.(Percy E Schramm)


Yes some researchers share online NARA rolls, so all can see them, others ask you to pay for them. I would start with Germany’s official History series.

Read everything by everyone*,pay for as little as you can, they prob got it for free why should you pay?, example the more or less Official History of the War Between the States is the OFficial Record of the Rebellion, by the War Dept, you can spend a great deal on eBay to get all vols hard copy, or you get them as a cd in pdf format for a fraction of the cost and have a search function to make researching easier, or you canget them for free as they are all avaiable online for free in the internet archive to read and download, along with enough other primary material to last you lifetime of research.

Askey is still a valuable resource, it just has some issues.

* You never know what interesting tidbit they know, example J Dunnigan Dirty Secrets of Ww2 which you can DL for free online easy enough, has the causal agent and number of German general officers killed or DOW, 110 Div 23 Korps 3 Army General 32% by air 14% by art 13% by small arms.



Light4bettor -> RE: TOEs question (2/27/2021 9:08:19 PM)

Thank you Hanny +1,

Speaking of secondary sources such as- Antony Beevor's Second World War, Ben H. Sheppard's "Hitler's Soldiers: the German Army in the Third Reich, and Peter Longerich's bio on Goebbels- all were horizon broadening for me. E.g, never realized how deep the triangular relationship of Magda/ Goebbels / Hitler was (and how manipulative Hitler was of a fawning J. Goebbels); not to mention how dead in the water Goebbels push for "Total War" was up to the end.

In addition, trying shed more light on soviet perspectives, through Glantz, but they make an academic journal like "journal of slavic military studies" (which is chockfull of interesting articles on Slavic perspective)-- prohibitively expensive to access (unless you are academically involved).

Did manage to acquire Charles Sharp's full set of volumes on Soviet order of battle on ebay though for a very reasonable amount.



Hanny -> RE: TOEs question (3/3/2021 8:02:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Thank you Hanny +1,

Speaking of secondary sources such as- Antony Beevor's Second World War, Ben H. Sheppard's "Hitler's Soldiers: the German Army in the Third Reich, and Peter Longerich's bio on Goebbels- all were horizon broadening for me. E.g, never realized how deep the triangular relationship of Magda/ Goebbels / Hitler was (and how manipulative Hitler was of a fawning J. Goebbels); not to mention how dead in the water Goebbels push for "Total War" was up to the end.

In addition, trying shed more light on soviet perspectives, through Glantz, but they make an academic journal like "journal of slavic military studies" (which is chockfull of interesting articles on Slavic perspective)-- prohibitively expensive to access (unless you are academically involved).

Did manage to acquire Charles Sharp's full set of volumes on Soviet order of battle on ebay though for a very reasonable amount.


Your welcome, you might find it useful to get a flash drive and join some WW2 forums, and copy paste online material for your use latter as many post online material you woul have to pay for, have translated for you and so on, for instance average advance rates on Eastern front by day and formation can be found in English from the Slavic Military Studies at Axis History forum and Russian Battlefield forums.




Hanny -> RE: TOEs question (3/3/2021 8:30:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I've pulled NARA rolls from Sturmpanzer, KSTNs from wwiidaybyday and have used the Russian site as well. Axis History Forums is a great place to get me started in areas of research as well


Having the KSTN is only half the work mind you, Askey uses them to say there are 4 bridglayers to a Div in the TOE, but Krupp who built them issued 16 to 5 Pzr Divs, not all, in 1940 withdrew them all by end of year as the 28 ton payload was to small, and replaced with C variant, and issued 4 to Pzr Div 3 in June 41, so there were 4 in service in one Div, not 4 in all.



Hanny -> RE: TOEs question (3/3/2021 9:45:47 AM)

Ŷ
quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

Can't answer the question on production



Please pass on to whose line it is, KFZ Der Wehrmacht ( goggle search will give you it online, it’s the tabulation by week for production your after) online production data by week, as the images posted appear to contain inaccurate weeks in production and production import numbers, start year.

Difference being 1400 from 4750 by 9/43, or 650 from 4750 by same date.



Denniss -> RE: TOEs question (3/3/2021 2:27:45 PM)

In witE2 we model chassis and aiframe production factories which is not always the same as assembly factories.
In case of halfracks we purely model the facs building the chassis but not the final assembly factories who added the armored body, weapons etc.
Aircraft and tanks are not easily separatable this way.
Tank facs usually got the armored body pre-fabricated from armor manufactorers and all else was added in large assembly factories. With the major work done at the assembly facs we model those.
Even worse with aircraft, they got so many major parts from multiple factories that were assembled in large assembly facs to produce the final aircraft. We still model the assembly facs but spread this out to locations known for producing large airframe parts. For example Junkers was known to have dedicated plants to produce Ju 88 wings, cockpits or fuselages and those are modeled too.

For the Sd. Kfz. 251 we have Hanomag, MNH, Adler, Auto Union but not Skoda. Not all at the same time though as some dropped out or changed to 251 production later in the war.



Hanny -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 3:33:01 PM)

Ok, so chassis factories is what you model.
1939 And 40, A And B chassis were produced at (5 factories)Hanomag Hanover, Bunsen Nag Berlin, Wumag of Goelitz, Waserhaute of Bad Oeyhause, and Schichau of Ebling.
4600 chassis 1941/2 C chassis were built at another extra 2 factories, for a total producing of 7, in Austria and Chezch.

10602 chassis in 1943 till end of war D Chassis brought the total chassis factories to 8.






Denniss -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 4:26:51 PM)

Hansa-Loyd/Goliath and Hanomag produced A/B chassis, Hanomag/MNH made Ausf C chassis with Adler, Auto Union and Skoda joining in 1943 or directly producing Ausf. D chassis
Schichau, Weserhütte, Wumag, Gollnow were assembly factories, Hanomag/MNH both made chassis and had a final assembly line but MNH switched to Panther production in 1943

Büssing-NAG was not involved in Sd.Kfz 251 production, austria had at best an armor supplier for them and czech was Skoda



Hanny -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 7:03:50 PM)

Büssing Nag designed and produced both the sdkfz 11 and 251, including production prototypes for others to work from, the chassis in both is the same chassis, hence 25k produced of which 16000 became 251 from the same chassis. Now you want to use 2 only, fine, different sources Doyle appears to be yours, can you tell us how many 251 chassis you have by year? I have posted where the weekly production of 251 is online, does your numbers match?as the images in game suggest they do not.



loki100 -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 7:30:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Büssing Nag designed and produced both the sdkfz 11 and 251, including production prototypes for others to work from, the chassis in both is the same chassis, hence 25k produced of which 16000 became 251 from the same chassis. Now you want to use 2 only, fine, different sources Doyle appears to be yours, can you tell us how many 251 chassis you have by year? I have posted where the weekly production of 251 is online, does your numbers match?as the images in game suggest they do not.


can I suggest that you wait till for 2 things. First the release of the manual section on the production rules - that might help put your assumptions into context. It is so different to WiTE1. Second, actually having the game to hand?

this is getting rather obscure and you are making some substantial assumptions based on a limited understanding of how the game pulls all this together?



RedLancer -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 7:31:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Büssing Nag designed and produced both the sdkfz 11 and 251, including production prototypes for others to work from, the chassis in both is the same chassis, hence 25k produced of which 16000 became 251 from the same chassis. Now you want to use 2 only, fine, different sources Doyle appears to be yours, can you tell us how many 251 chassis you have by year? I have posted where the weekly production of 251 is online, does your numbers match?as the images in game suggest they do not.



Loki100 beat me to it. To clarify the numbers will never match because not all 251 variants and no Sdkfz 11 variants are modelled in the game. A good example is the 251/19 - no communications equipment is specifically modelled and signallers in general are swept into the broad catch all of support squads along with chefs, medics, clerks, medics and military police. We have put every effort in making it as close to historically accurate/workable as the code and abstractions allow.

If you want to get into a detailed examination of the numbers don't rely on screenshots as it is far from the full picture, buy the game and if you still have concerns I promise I'll give you a personal crash course on modding the game so you can improve it further for all of us.



Hanny -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 7:47:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Büssing Nag designed and produced both the sdkfz 11 and 251, including production prototypes for others to work from, the chassis in both is the same chassis, hence 25k produced of which 16000 became 251 from the same chassis. Now you want to use 2 only, fine, different sources Doyle appears to be yours, can you tell us how many 251 chassis you have by year? I have posted where the weekly production of 251 is online, does your numbers match?as the images in game suggest they do not.


can I suggest that you wait till for 2 things. First the release of the manual section on the production rules - that might help put your assumptions into context. It is so different to WiTE1. Second, actually having the game to hand?

this is getting rather obscure and you are making some substantial assumptions based on a limited understanding of how the game pulls all this together?


Asking if your using known weekly production numbers is not being obscure or making assumptions, when the in game image shows the import number over a time period which does not match historical numbers for that time period, but yes your right best to wait till I can decompile the Dll and look through the code if I have questions.



loki100 -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 7:51:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Büssing Nag designed and produced both the sdkfz 11 and 251, including production prototypes for others to work from, the chassis in both is the same chassis, hence 25k produced of which 16000 became 251 from the same chassis. Now you want to use 2 only, fine, different sources Doyle appears to be yours, can you tell us how many 251 chassis you have by year? I have posted where the weekly production of 251 is online, does your numbers match?as the images in game suggest they do not.


can I suggest that you wait till for 2 things. First the release of the manual section on the production rules - that might help put your assumptions into context. It is so different to WiTE1. Second, actually having the game to hand?

this is getting rather obscure and you are making some substantial assumptions based on a limited understanding of how the game pulls all this together?


Asking if your using known weekly production numbers is not being obscure or making assumptions, when the in game image shows the import number over a time period which does not match historical numbers for that time period, but yes your right best to wait till I can decompile the Dll and look through the code if I have questions.



the point is you don't know how the game treats these inputs, so after a point this thread gets pretty pointless. You are making assumptions about how it works, some of them are wrong. We've given you some information as to why but really we are not going to publish the manual chapter or the game code?

edit: I presume your comment about decompiling the game code is meant as a joke. Worth remembering that is not public property.



Hanny -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 8:00:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RedLancer

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

Büssing Nag designed and produced both the sdkfz 11 and 251, including production prototypes for others to work from, the chassis in both is the same chassis, hence 25k produced of which 16000 became 251 from the same chassis. Now you want to use 2 only, fine, different sources Doyle appears to be yours, can you tell us how many 251 chassis you have by year? I have posted where the weekly production of 251 is online, does your numbers match?as the images in game suggest they do not.



Loki100 beat me to it. To clarify the numbers will never match because not all 251 variants and no Sdkfz 11 variants are modelled in the game. A good example is the 251/19 - no communications equipment is specifically modelled and signallers in general are swept into the broad catch all of support squads along with chefs, medics, clerks, medics and military police. We have put every effort in making it as close to historically accurate/workable as the code and abstractions allow.

If you want to get into a detailed examination of the numbers don't rely on screenshots as it is far from the full picture, buy the game and if you still have concerns I promise I'll give you a personal crash course on modding the game so you can improve it further for all of us.


I may take you up later on your kind offer, hey we all want the best we can get from it right?.

AH chose production numbers of x y and z, he set economic policy, so one reason why German replacements parts were difficult to get to the front was they existed in small numbers relative to completed assets, this is planning failure, as much as a logistical failure, completed assets in depots meant it was often easier to equip a new formation and deploy it, AH loved more numbers over keeping formations up to strength, fight it to the front as part of its last training requirement before committing to the front, rather than send replacement parts to repair existing ones, or send a full replacement or wait for it to be sent by to workshops in Germany and repaired there as per doctrine.

What I hope to see in 2 from this production chassis methodology is that kind of choice for the payer, replacements of losses will be harder when new formations suck up that asset lowering stocks, and have a similar problem to solve.



Light4bettor -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 8:27:34 PM)

quote:

Hanny: so one reason why German replacements parts were difficult to get to the front was they existed in small numbers relative to completed assets, this is planning failure, as much as a logistical failure, completed assets in depots meant it was often easier to equip a new formation and deploy it


This point about spare parts reminds me of one of Liedtke's assertions in "Enduring the Whirlwind: The German Army and the Russo German War 41-43," when he points out that many of the German tanks classified as "damaged but somewhat easily repairable," (the distinction between Ausfalle and Totalausfalle, sure there are degrees of Ausfalle) were stripped of parts to fix other Panzers that were still classified as "runners" or had more potential to be runners. (specifically talking about the Stalingrad campaign but has some application in general). Therefore they would have to wait for tank shipments in order to plus up.

Basically, they had to make the portion of tank losses that were originally non-permanent become permanent in order to keep the steadily dwindling number of runners from dropping too fast.
In order to preserve tank strength, or at least slow the attrition rate, the field/divisional/regimental maintenance teams were forced to accomplish this by robbing peter to pay paul (until a bulk shipment arrives to help bring the unit closer to its TOE). Definitely exacerbated by logistic lines (I think it was a single track line in the Stalingrad campaign.)

And to be clear, those potentially fixable tanks that were cannibalized for parts because of the lack of spare parts, basically became total/permanent losses (Totalausfalle), because they would never accumulate the spare parts to work on them and the active tank pool at the same time, and shipping those tanks back to Germany was not always practicable because of the distances/logistics involved. Major inefficiencies at play here.

However, not withstanding Hanny's assertion about spare-parts production, I suspect that better logistics and a significant slowing in the operational tempo could have positively impacted tank strengths (meaning more non-permanent losses repaired than historically). But, certainly those to conditions were not likely to be met in the Stalingrad campaign at least.



Hanny -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 8:54:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

quote:

Hanny: so one reason why German replacements parts were difficult to get to the front was they existed in small numbers relative to completed assets, this is planning failure, as much as a logistical failure, completed assets in depots meant it was often easier to equip a new formation and deploy it


This reminds me of one of Liedtke's assertions in "Enduring the Whirlwind: The German Army and the Russo German War 41-43," when he points out that many of the German tanks classified as "damaged but somewhat easily repairable," (the distinction between Ausfalle and Totalausfalle). were stripped of parts to fix other Panzers that where still classified as "runners" or had more potential to be runners. (specifically talking about the Stalingrad campaign but has some application in general). Therefore they would have to wait for tank shipments, in order to plus up.
Preserving tank strength by robbing peter to pay paul (until a bulk shipment arrives to help bring closer to TOE). Definitely exacerbated by logistic lines (I think it was a single track line in the Stalingrad campaign.)

And to be clear, those fixable tanks that were cannibalized, basically became total losses. Major inefficiencies at play here.


Indeed, I rather like Liedtke
, not in service for whatever reason means a lowering of combat power, moving x number from one category to another to keep numbers up of in service assets was one way they made do,

When PLUTo came online it started to put 80 octane fuel to Europe, the UK Qm truck companies, them moved it inland, only they could not run on 80 octane, it was to rich, so c1400 3t trucks all went kaput around the same time before anyone spotted the planners adding to the usual fuel had got it wrong, and changed it to 70, planning problem, solved by another planning contingency, they had 1400 and more spare stocks to replace them with and the Qmtruck coy kept on rolling, and the RE repaired them at a rate of 80 a week, because hey we have plenty, and we don’t need to rush, but on paper it looks like in service numbers are poor.

when the OST front in service numbers were poor, cannibalising was the only means left after a while, as planning allowed for little replacement as the plan said it will all be over before you need it.

Shipping back would appear to be easy, after all its free return trip right?, not free after all, by 43 the RR had shipped 6.3 million tons tons of cereals back to the Reich and 3.3 million to the AG to live of the land, along with vast other quantities.





Denniss -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 9:03:01 PM)

Sd.Kfz. 11 was actually developed by Hansa-Lloyd/Borgward with Hanomag taking over later on and also developing the 251 from that chassis.
Chassis of 11 and 251 is not 100% identical due to adaptions for using armored components.

Büssing-NAG made and developed the Sd.Kfz. 6 and sWs Halftracks, they were also involved in Sd.Kfz. 10/251 chassis production and limited final assembly



Light4bettor -> RE: TOEs questio (3/3/2021 9:49:11 PM)

Lolz, again the story (forget the source and context), that because of the rubber shortage, German firms would buy trucks just for their tires and scrap the rest of truck. I may research this further, but incredible if true.



Hanny -> RE: TOEs questio (3/4/2021 6:47:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor


However, not withstanding Hanny's assertion about spare-parts production, I suspect that better logistics and a significant slowing in the operational tempo could have positively impacted tank strengths (meaning more non-permanent losses repaired than historically). But, certainly those to conditions were not likely to be met in the Stalingrad campaign at least.

What I mean is your economic model provides1 spare in 10 or 3 in 10 of a finished product, it impacts on logistical ability to maintain in service rates, esp when they fluctuate outside planning estimates.This is a planning failure not a logistical failure.The logistics of getting the 1 or 3 spare to end user is a separate issue.

Example UK 43 Planners want to go to Europe, Qm advise 240 3t truck Coys, planners look and decide they can do it with 160, industry don’t know who is going to be right and starts to build enough for 240, in. Coy are 48 trucks, with 8 expected to be out of service at any point in time.

Uk 21AG had 7.7 MTV to a man and had logistical issues getting from Normandy to the NWE, Germany had 1 for every two men for roughly the same ton miles.


Uk industry builds the trucks the planners want for DDay, QM dept wants 240 at 3t, with 48 trucks with 8 out of service at any point in time, operational planners game it out and say, 240 is more than we need, we think we need 160.

So planning expects 6400 from a 7680 capacity. when the wrong fuel was used capacity dropped by around 27 Truck Coys equivalency, and that’s from the 90 odd that we’re actualy deployed by that date. Because industry built for 240 there was ample stocks to replace them and take time about repairs.

Germany had neither option, Industry could not build enough to motorise the size of the Heer AH said he wanted, about 170k trucks short in 41; when the Pzer force doubles in operational unit numbers, it’s because of looting of Europe’s MTV allows it, but it gives you not standard this is what we want, approved German trucks, it gives you whatever you get, resulting in getting the spares for a French truck, in Russia, from a factory in France that has its workforce mostly moved to Germany to work and it’s machine shops looted, not as easy as Just in time TIK logistics.

Try Ravenhill, influence of logistics on operations in NWEurope if you have nor seen it.





Hanny -> RE: TOEs questio (3/4/2021 6:59:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Lolz, again the story (forget the source and context), that because of the rubber shortage, German firms would buy trucks just for their tires and scrap the rest of truck. I may research this further, but incredible if true.


Iirc is when it happens that’s the important point, 39 blockade stops rubber imports, so Germany has its synthetics, c70k tons, it imports from Japan via Russia, c20k tons, when War breaks out with SU, that now has to come by submarine from a Japan or through Vichy, so the driver for cost changes is the loss of imports from loss of SU imports.G Thomas warned pre invasion stocks of rubber would run out by Nov 41.

look at spare tyres allocation for Rommel in Africa.



Hanny -> RE: TOEs questio (3/12/2021 9:52:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Lolz, again the story (forget the source and context), that because of the rubber shortage, German firms would buy trucks just for their tires and scrap the rest of truck. I may research this further, but incredible if true.


It’s from the Vampire Economy, Gunter Reiman whichis free online, page 61, TIK used the reference in one of his vids, I guess that’s where you heard it recently, and actually refers to pre war rubber shortages, lack of hard currency to import, not war time shortages, lack of imports from blockade.



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