Confusion on Skill Rolls (Full Version)

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Shadow Empire



Message

andyinkuwait -> Confusion on Skill Rolls (2/28/2021 5:19:27 AM)

My Governor has relations 82, scavenge 6 and a bonus of 10%. On his skill log it says average roll is 92 (this is T1 btw) and average bonus is 5%.

Same Governor has agriculture of 30, relations 82 and a bonus of 18%. On his skill log it says average roll is 137 and average bonus is 18%.

How do we get these numbers? What is average roll and what is average bonus?

I understand the concept of a 1-100 roll but I can't equate this with any of the skill log information. Apparently actual skill roll is hidden (which may account for the actual bonus I am getting this turn). If this is true, what is the point of the skill log?



zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (2/28/2021 6:56:33 AM)

The average roll of a 1D100 is 50/51.
Just figure out the average of 2 dice of the same size - wich is the highest and lowest number rollable or 101 for 2D100 - and half it.

Are you certain those are the totals for those skills?
Skills under 20 Skillpoints, only can use 5% of the Stat per Skillpoint.
And Group skills get a bonus equal to half the difference between themself and the highest group skill.



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (2/28/2021 8:32:09 AM)

Why am I figuring out the average of 2 dice? It's a single d100 roll.

Even if I work out the average roll, it definitely does not come to 92.
Relations would give +16, Scavenge is 6 giving an average roll of 72 with a d100 (actually lower if your point about being under 20 counts)

These are definitely all totals (for the skills)



BlueTemplar -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (2/28/2021 9:27:23 AM)

It's an average because your Governor might give an agriculture bonus to multiple farms (and it's different for each farm, even on the same turn).

It seems that the relation modifier is taken into account later and separately ?
(Relation, Skill and Strain bonuses are clearly multiplicative, with some rounding.)

Since Avg. Bonus seems to always be less than Avg. Skill Roll - [EDIT : Nope, your first example is a counter-example.]
and often close to ([Avg. Skill Roll]-100)/2/100
- I'm guessing that there are two levels of rolls ?



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (2/28/2021 9:59:46 AM)

I only have one farm.

It's pretty frustrating to have to work all these things out ourselves.

If the dev wants it hidden then hide it, but don't give vague and contradictory clues about how it is calculated and expect players to be thankful.

If I don't know the mechanism, then it's pretty hard to work out the best route for improving these bonuses, beyond the totally obvious.

Are skills more important than relations? Which takes priority? Like I say, if you don't want us to know, then stop talking about average dice rolls and average skill bonuses without explaining them.

There is nothing in the manual about the skill log btw



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/1/2021 6:23:43 PM)

Well, I have at least figured out the Agriculture bonus which is 1.16 (relations) x 1.18 (Agriculture roll of 88 + 30) = 1.37 hence bonus of 37%

Doesn't work so well for metals though. I have a total Scavenge of 6 and a relation of +16 but metal production is actually 60% more than it should be. Normal production is 40 metals. Actual production is 64 metals. Absolute max roll would be 106.

Can't find any other bonuses for metal production. I feel I made progress but stumped in the end.



zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/1/2021 6:57:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait

Well, I have at least figured out the Agriculture bonus which is 1.16 (relations) x 1.18 (Agriculture roll of 88 + 30) = 1.37 hence bonus of 37%

Doesn't work so well for metals though. I have a total Scavenge of 6 and a relation of +16 but metal production is actually 60% more than it should be. Normal production is 40 metals. Actual production is 64 metals. Absolute max roll would be 106.

Can't find any other bonuses for metal production. I feel I made progress but stumped in the end.

IIRC, Relation is simply a modifier on the roll. caps out at +/-20.



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/1/2021 7:20:39 PM)

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's where the 1.16 multiplier comes from. It doesn't modify the roll itself, it simply multiples the bonus got from the roll.



zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/1/2021 9:07:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait

Yes, I'm aware of that. That's where the 1.16 multiplier comes from. It doesn't modify the roll itself, it simply multiples the bonus got from the roll.

I do not think you understand:
There is no multiplier
Relation is a flat bonus of up to +20 on the actuall roll.

IIRC, some bonsues only applied to the lower bound of a roll (so a +20 means you rolle a 1D100+20, but cap the result to 100). I think relation bonuses were one of them.



BlueTemplar -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/2/2021 4:52:34 PM)

There definitely *is* a multiplier, at least for these kinds of asset productions ?
[see embedded picture]
1.12*1.55 = 1.736
(also multiplied by the effective administrative strain, if any)

EDIT: Not sure how the relation multiplier is calculated either, manual says relation score modifies public resource production within [-25%;+25%], but my Governor is at 70 relation, and assuming a linear relationship, this should translate to a bonus of +10% and not +12% ??
EDIT2 : +8% if [-20%;+20%], +12% would be consistent with [-30%;+30]

Now, maybe the relation modifier is actually applied *twice*, one time on the actual roll... but that would be surprising & a bug ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait
Doesn't work so well for metals though. I have a total Scavenge of 6 and a relation of +16 but metal production is actually 60% more than it should be. Normal production is 40 metals. Actual production is 64 metals. Absolute max roll would be 106.

Can't find any other bonuses for metal production. I feel I made progress but stumped in the end.

What do the asset details (like my screenshot) say ?
(BTW, I kind of lied before, I didn't look at agriculture but at scavenging (because an example with a zone with multiple recycling facilities was easier to find), but I would be *very* surprised if scavenging worked differently !)

[image]local://upfiles/34953/983FA0B1B2934027AC1A092378C290A1.jpg[/image]



zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/2/2021 6:54:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BlueTemplar

There definitely *is* a multiplier, at least for these kinds of asset productions ?
[see embedded picture]
1.12*1.55 = 1.736
(also multiplied by the effective administrative strain, if any)

EDIT: Not sure how the relation multiplier is calculated either, manual says relation score modifies public resource production within [-25%;+25%], but my Governor is at 70 relation, and assuming a linear relationship, this should translate to a bonus of +10% and not +12% ??
EDIT2 : +8% if [-20%;+20%], +12% would be consistent with [-30%;+30]

Now, maybe the relation modifier is actually applied *twice*, one time on the actual roll... but that would be surprising & a bug ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait
Doesn't work so well for metals though. I have a total Scavenge of 6 and a relation of +16 but metal production is actually 60% more than it should be. Normal production is 40 metals. Actual production is 64 metals. Absolute max roll would be 106.

Can't find any other bonuses for metal production. I feel I made progress but stumped in the end.

What do the asset details (like my screenshot) say ?
(BTW, I kind of lied before, I didn't look at agriculture but at scavenging (because an example with a zone with multiple recycling facilities was easier to find), but I would be *very* surprised if scavenging worked differently !)

[image]local://upfiles/34953/983FA0B1B2934027AC1A092378C290A1.jpg[/image]

That asset has a -45% from Logistics issues.

If you want to figure out any math, the last thing you want is additional modifiers. Because then you have to ask in wich order they are applied and if multiplicative/compounding or additive.

And it could be that 12% bonus is part of the overall Skill Roll Bonus. 55% Bonus, 12% from the Relation Modifier to the Skill Roll. If we know the Ratio between Skill Roll and Bonus, it would be easy to figure out that +12 Roll is +12% or something like that.



zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/2/2021 7:24:19 PM)

5.6.5 Organisations:
"An Organization always performs better if it has a Leader assigned as its Director. Depending on your Relation with the Director the impact of the BP allocated will be increased. It can be increased by +50% if your Relation Score with the Director is at the maximum of 100 points."

5.6.4.2. bonuses for tasks
"Some Tasks can receive Bonuses. These bonuses will increase the impact BP invested in the Task will have.Director Relation Bonus
If your Organization is missing a Director, you値l suffer a -50% penalty. Once you have a Director in place with a Relation >50 you値l start receiving a bonus. A Director with a Relation <50 gives penalties between -1% and -50%. So, a Relation of 90 will give a 40% bonus on BP invested.

Director Skill Bonus
If the Skill Roll of the Director is above 100, the value above 100 will be used as a positive percentage modifier. So, a roll of 123 will give a 23% bonus on BP invested."

5.6.7. strataGem GeneratIon and PP Costs
"The PP cost of your Stratagems is dependent on your Relation with the Leader who値l execute the Stratagem. If Relation is higher than 50 you will have to pay less PP, if Relation is below 50 you値l have more PP.The absence of a Leader for the Organization that executes the Stratagem increases the PP cost to the max. Some Stratagems can also be executed by the Supreme Council as well as a more specialized Council. Using the Supreme Council to execute these Stratagems also increases the PP cost.If you already have a certain number of specific Stratagems, the chance to get another one will be diminished sharply."

5.8.1.1. relatIon stat
"The most important of all Key Stats is the Relation Stat of your Leaders. Your Relation level with your Leader can vary between 0 and 100. Above 50 you値l receive bonuses on the work the Leader is doing. Below 50 you値l receive penalties. However, keep in mind that if no Leader is assigned the invisible replacement acts as a Relation 0 Leader. So it is almost always prudent to assign Leaders to vacant posts.For Governors, the Relation Stat impacts Public Resource/Item production levels, (like Food, Energy, Metal, but not PP or BP).For Commanders, the Relation Stat impacts the XP (training) and Morale recuperation speeds.For Directors, the Relation Stat impacts the progress speed of their Tasks.For all Leaders, the Relation Stat impacts the Skill Roll results somewhat."

So it seems like one, Unified Mechanic overall. Lacking a leader gives the maximum Relations Penalty (meaning even a 10% Relation leader would be better).
But only rolls past 100 give any bonus.

Practical Examples:
Lack of a Governor on a Metal Mine:
"Governor modifies Resource Production by -50% (Absence of Govenor: -50%)"

Same Metal Mine with a new Goernor:
"Governor modifies Resource Production by +3% (Relations Modifier +3%)"

Relations with new leader was 56%
Skill Roll for mining was 83 (under 100, so no bonus).

Another City, Private Dome farm:
+17% Bonus, Relationship Bonus +17%
Relations: 80
Agriculture Roll of 41 (below 100, no bonus).

So there is no question:
Relationship bonus is part of the overall bonus, not a seperate figure.
And only skill rolls past 100 mater for Skill bonuses.



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/2/2021 8:16:59 PM)

I'm not 100% sure how to add an image to this post so I'll just describe the asset description.

Scavenging Community
Private Asset
Produces 15 Fuel. 40 Metal, 25 PrivMetal, 25 PrivOil, 10 popCredits

Governor modifies Metal production result with 28% (Rel modifier 16%, Scavenge skill bonus 10%)
Produced 64 Metal

Governor modifies Fuel production result with 16% (Rel modifier 16%)
Produced 21 Fuel

Scavenger total skill is 6
Relation is 82

How is 64 Metal calculated from this? How is the scavenge bonus 10% (system reports scavenge average roll was 92 and this is the only scavenge operation) and finally how on earth do we get 64 Metals produced?

Might the extra metals be due to playing on Normal ?

Of course, same questions for fuel production

There are no logistics issues, this is Turn 1





zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/2/2021 8:55:09 PM)

quote:

Scavenging Community
Private Asset
Produces 15 Fuel. 40 Metal, 25 PrivMetal, 25 PrivOil, 10 popCredits

Governor modifies Metal production result with 28% (Rel modifier 16%, Scavenge skill bonus 10%)
Produced 64 Metal

Governor modifies Fuel production result with 16% (Rel modifier 16%)
Produced 21 Fuel

Scavenger total skill is 6
Relation is 82

Look under Reports, Feats and Bonus Overview, for any bonus like "Private Bonus".
Add it to the Bonus from Governor (the combined skill & relation one).
You should get ~60% for Metal, ~40% for Fuel.



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 2:27:38 AM)

Here is an overview of our regime bonuses

You have no bonuses

Here is an overview of bonus points (that will translate into bonuses next turn)

Public Industrial Bonus Points 80
Political Bonus Points 150

For it to actually work I would be looking for a 25% bonus



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 7:17:34 AM)

So this is what I think is happening in the above asset.

For metals, the roll was above 100 and provided +10% (not sure how this is possible as, with a scavenge skill of 6, the maximum roll is 106)

For fuel the roll was below 100 so no bonus for scavenge at all

In both cases 25% was added/multiplied in as a mystery bonus - and I really don't know where that comes from.



zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 8:01:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait

So this is what I think is happening in the above asset.

For metals, the roll was above 100 and provided +10% (not sure how this is possible as, with a scavenge skill of 6, the maximum roll is 106)

For fuel the roll was below 100 so no bonus for scavenge at all

In both cases 25% was added/multiplied in as a mystery bonus - and I really don't know where that comes from.

Maybe you got a Cult wich provides a purely local bonus?

In the end this is Private Economy, so you got no Control over what it produces and when it upgrades/changes. You just take the Kickbacks/In Kind Tax as a nice bonus. And try to get some value out of them using Taxes.



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 10:53:50 AM)

But MY bonuses make a difference so if there is some other bonus going on, especially as big as 25%, I would want to know about it.

I do have cults but they provide Public Industrial Bonus Points and Political Bonus Points

Still don't know how I can scavenge roll above 106 to generate +10%



zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 12:36:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait

Still don't know how I can scavenge roll above 106 to generate +10%

You do mean the Skill Total - not just the Skill Level - right?

Also do you have any bonus on Intelligence Rolls that might not be dispalyed in the Total?
Without a Image of the Asset production log and the Governor, there is no realy way to tell.



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 5:23:55 PM)

That is the skill total for the Governor.

All information on Asset production, word for word, is given above

Intelligence for Governor is 51. No bonus mentioned.



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 5:35:07 PM)

More news. I got rid of the governor completely and, of course, take a -50% hit

I still have the 25% bonus as metals go from a production base of 40 to an actual production of 25 (0.5 x 1.25 x 40)

Fuel goes from a base of 15 to an actual production of 9 (0.5 x 1.25 x 15)

So where is the 25% coming from?



zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 6:06:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait

More news. I got rid of the governor completely and, of course, take a -50% hit

I still have the 25% bonus as metals go from a production base of 40 to an actual production of 25 (0.5 x 1.25 x 40)

Fuel goes from a base of 15 to an actual production of 9 (0.5 x 1.25 x 15)

So where is the 25% coming from?

With all the things we excluded? Not a lot of ideas left.
Maybe extraction optimisation tech? Grasping at straws here.

Without a savegame or even images, we are trying to debug blind, without a solid base of information.



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 7:11:36 PM)

How can I post a save game?

EDIT figured out how to post a jpg but not a save file



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 7:21:18 PM)

Can't figure out how to post a save game so here is the asset


[image]local://upfiles/27861/9373996CC9584B2C9F0ACA017E931F35.jpg[/image]



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 7:25:48 PM)

Here's the Governor


[image]local://upfiles/27861/F87E55996C0F4C4BA0FA7ED5012EF19A.jpg[/image]



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 7:31:57 PM)

Same asset with no Governor


[image]local://upfiles/27861/081183E2D23F432A957EEA8ACDE4D865.jpg[/image]



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 7:37:30 PM)

Here's the feats and bonuses



[image]local://upfiles/27861/D9ED9555619448B5A1BEE1DB9D739B68.jpg[/image]



zgrssd -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/3/2021 8:48:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: andyinkuwait

Can't figure out how to post a save game so here is the asset


[image]local://upfiles/27861/9373996CC9584B2C9F0ACA017E931F35.jpg[/image]

These values indeed make no sense. But I also got nothing like those values in any game.

The one time I had a unexplained bonus, it turned out to have been the Private Economy one.
But here the bonus seems to only affect the Public part of production.
But nothing should be affecting the Public Part of production but the Governor. At least not anymore: It used to be that Public Economy Bonus affected all resource yields, but nowadays it is limited down to Industry, Heavy Industry and High Tech Industry assets only - an called Public Industry Bonus.

More wild guesses:
- Is there any chance this save game is from a really old game version? Maybe someone elses Planet generation save? Are you playing online and there is a chance people are using different game versions?
Unfortunately a few poor design choices by Vic means that a lot of data is actually carried in the savegame. Meaning that older version savegames (planet creation included) can carry some really old bugs and rules. And there is also no protection against people using different versions in a MP game in older versions either.
- Or are you running a old version fo the game? Current live version is 1.08.01.

You can find both figures under Reports -> Empire Dashboard -> Tooltip for Version.
I attached a screenshot of a game where the savegame was created in 1.08.01, but wich is being played in the 1.08.02 beta.

Unless one of my guesses hit the mark, all I can think off is making a bug report. Vic should respond with his Email, so you can send him the savegames and he can take a look at it.

[image]local://upfiles/72251/17B94AC54EBF4CDFBFA205DB9B4D3DA5.jpg[/image]



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/4/2021 2:22:28 AM)

No, both are 1.08. I put the beta in yesterday in case something changed. Not playing online and not using someone else's data.

[image]local://upfiles/27861/CBE51B39525C4BBC933F6363DE591EA7.jpg[/image]



andyinkuwait -> RE: Confusion on Skill Rolls (3/4/2021 2:40:00 AM)

Well, here's the save game for anyone to take a look in case I missed anything

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1q2jojCQp75vpKpDRmmV6wK2hJkKYe4Hv/view?usp=sharing



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.8125