Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (Full Version)

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Nexira -> Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/2/2021 12:45:29 AM)

Every time i run this game i get to the point where im civilized, and then get really annoyed that i cant enforce my nations new civilized morals on the less civilized. I want to destroy the brothels and arenas in my newly conquered territory, since they are now in a technological empire and should enjoy the state sanctioned vices instead! (in 20 turns when i feel like i can spare the resources. Or never if i forget. But no law breaking now!) It really clashes with the feel im going for in every empire i play that there is no way to interact with the private stuff aside from nationalizing specific industries. If i could outlaw casinos, brothels, libraries, etc that would be really cool for RPing my empire. Maybe just a little tab of the various industries somewhere in the asset management screen where you can check/uncheck what private industries will build, and then an icon to destroy buildings somewhere on asset itself. (then if you wanted to be extra cool, a second tab for if unincorporated zones can build it. Kind of like casinos on indian reservations type of feel.



Hazard151 -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/2/2021 11:47:03 AM)

Meanwhile in my own empires, the general assumption is that as a place becomes more technologically sophisticated and options and capabilities grow brothels, arenas, casinos and so forth become more extensively legislated to protect the people working there as well as the customer base. Sure, the ladies and gentlemen of negotiable affection still ply their trade, the fighters still fight in the rings and the casinos see vast quantities of money moved through their games and wheels of chance, but the staff is free of venereal disease (and the customers better be too), the fighters examined after the fights to ensure they suffered no severe injury and the casinos forbidden from tampering with the odds (and woe the casino that does that anyway), but the fact that my nation has grown 'civilized' is no reason to stop doing the things they enjoy so long as nobody gets hurt.

Well, nobody who doesn't want to get hurt. Those who do are a more difficult question to answer.

There is, after all, more than one way to consider something civilized. The Romans found themselves to be very civilized, what, with the gladiatorial games.



zgrssd -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/2/2021 3:17:59 PM)

As the US Prohibition Era shows, you simply can not outlaw specific vices.
You can only push the vices deeper in the hand of the Criminal Element/Black Market/Underground.



Nexira -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/2/2021 7:39:35 PM)

As the US prohibition (and modern) era shows, governments can outlaw specific vices, as thats exactly what they did. And its true some people will turn to crime for them. Its statistically a fact that making certain vices illegal reduces their amount. If im playing a full government communist nation, not being able to ban casinos seems dumb. Or as a control state banning libraries, etc. All the game would have to do to simulate the crime and unrest caused by banning would be to add a happiness/worker/tax modifier to the population for the stuff now being nontaxable, people being mad, and angry about it.



zgrssd -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/2/2021 9:33:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nexira

As the US prohibition (and modern) era shows, governments can outlaw specific vices, as thats exactly what they did.

Wich only propped up Organized Crime, failing utterly at archieving the goal. The same way the "War on Drugs" keeps failing.

You really just increase corruption and crime with such a ban.



Nexira -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/2/2021 11:31:32 PM)

Mate. Buddy. Pal. I am not saying it shouldnt do such a thing, I specifically stated negative effects it could have. This is not a political argument. This is not an argument on what is moral and right. I obviously dont believe we should ban libraries or schools IRL. This is a suggestion for a tool that would allow us to RP our empires beyond a number in the background or bonuses we forget about. It is a historical fact that banning vices is a regular occurrence for nations. It is a statistical fact that this sometimes works, and sometimes has benefits. It is also a feature that you wouldnt be forced to use, and would require nothing but a new menu, nation effect, and the exact same building rule high command bunker and some private industries already have. I absolutely do not care what you think is moral or correct as far as what im doing in a post apocalypse sci-fi simulation game.



Hazard151 -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/3/2021 9:55:40 AM)

Outlawing specific vices is possible, tobacco consumption has been outlawed in much of Europe in specific environments for example.

Successfully dealing with vices means a lot of socio cultural engineering and a lot of time. The force of law can help, but if the population want to continue indulging they will.



Jadey -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/9/2021 10:39:06 AM)

quote:

Its statistically a fact that making certain vices illegal reduces their amount

While yes, the total amount available can be reduced, that just raises the price on illicit alcohol and brings in a market for bootleg liquor, and bath tub moonshine frequently caused blindness and other ethanol poisoning issues. While the use declined to an estimated 30% of pre-prohibition levels, the amount of risk, danger, and societal issues exponentially increased due to prohibition.

For instance with heroin a lot of the fatalities are caused by inconsistent quality. You can be doing bad **** for a week but then your boy hits you up with that fentanyl calling it heroin and next thing you know you're out like a light. Government regulation prevents quality control issues like varying potency, which is probably one of the main reasons for OD, (that and using after a period of abstinence.) Overall, heroin is a really benign drug and unless you overdose on it it's really not the damaging to the body.

Harm reduction and other legal measures help reduce the risks and costs of illicit activity. The Syringe Exchange in Philadelphia, USA, helps addicts get clean needles in exchange for their dirty ones, keeping the streets cleaner and causing less issues from sharing needles. Government legislation and regulation has always been ideal for industries. If they do make it where you can ban things, there should be serious criminal repercussions. I didn't go to Space Texas just to be lectured on vice morality by some guy committing genocide against the native born aliens.



zgrssd -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/9/2021 11:32:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hazard151

Outlawing specific vices is possible, tobacco consumption has been outlawed in much of Europe in specific environments for example.


Tobacco consumption is not outlawed in any place of the world I know off, especially not in Europe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smoking_bans
All we do is prohibit consumption in public, where other people can be affected.
Same way there are rules against running around naked in public.

The most severe rules I can find are around the line "National smoke-free legislation covering all public indoor areas (sometimes with specific exceptions)". Wich does not prevent you from Smoking at home.

And most EU countries got very wide exceptions: "National smoke-free legislation for public areas except entertainment and restaurants – some localities have additional local restrictions".
Meaning there are plenty of shared&public spaces where you can smoke on top of your home.

I do not see how that is outlawing Tobacco.
Also I am pretty sure the rules that tobacco packages have to contain images of the side effect (not pretty), warning texts have to be in all Advertisement and the high Taxes do a lot more to curb consumption over decades then out outlawing would.



LarryBurstyn -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/10/2021 12:11:06 PM)

Making something legal does not reduce corruption it only changes it's form.



zgrssd -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/10/2021 1:29:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryBurstyn

Making something legal does not reduce corruption it only changes it's form.


???
"Corruption is a form of dishonesty or criminal offense undertaken by a person or organization entrusted with a position of authority, to acquire illicit benefit or abuse power for one's private gain. Corruption may include many activities including bribery and embezzlement, though it may also involve practices that are legal in many countries."

I never heard of Crime Syndicates being "corrupt", given that nobody is entrusting them with a position of Authority. So I can not really understand what you are trying to say here.



Nexira -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/11/2021 11:55:19 PM)

I dont get why you all keep arguing about modern day **** thats not even banned, or the immediate effects of a ban. Smoking has been reduced by anti smoking campaigns if you wanna argue there, but more importantly lets talk about things that are banned that arent gonna have idiots arguing stupid things: gladiatorial death arenas. Wheres the market for gladiatorial death arenas? or do you want to use slavery as an example, last i checked the % of the population enslaved has gone down, even if slavery isnt completely gone. Prostitution, child pornography, these are all markets that have been reduced by making them illegal. Youll notice, instead of being used as was considered 'harmful' those vices have evolved to meet modern moral standards, like prostitution, gig economy, or football arenas. If you have to rely on the most socially accepted vices to justify not outlawing any vice, your argument has no value for judging the predicted effects of vices in an artificial society we control with near absolute information.

In the immediate aftermath of all those things being banned, they went through a prohibition phase. Prostitution didnt become a less than 1% of the working population thing for at least 20 years after it began being banned in the US. (best estimates i can find place number of prostitutes in england in 1801 when the first modern censuses were beginning to happen at .72% of the total population, no estimate for total of working population easily findable but its definitly over 1% of total. Meanwhile, an estiamate from 1990s predicted twenty three in one hundred thousand full time prostitutes, or basically **** all of the population. The absolute highest estimate i can find for the us in modern times (looking specifically for the most exagerative articles)is at .28% of the population. Or less than half. Prostitution is still an industry with public support for its existence, and places where it is legalized. Something without support like a gladiatorial death arena is so unheard of, there probably arent measurable statistics.

zgrssd rellying on quoting the guy wrong in order to try and make a point, man anyone getting that far down the threads gonna see that dishonesty please dont do that.



zgrssd -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/12/2021 3:07:14 PM)

quote:

but more importantly lets talk about things that are banned that arent gonna have idiots arguing stupid things: gladiatorial death arenas. Wheres the market for gladiatorial death arenas?

Who said anything about death arena?

All our data indicates the Roman arenas were - most of the time - the ancient equivalent to the World Wrestling Association. It was all just a show.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIDlAPNwbS8

There have been executions and slave fights of course. But asuming thatmakes the "death areaneas" is like saying that Sports Stadiums worldwide are for executions, because China and some 3rd world countries ocassionally use them for executions.



Nexira -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/12/2021 6:05:23 PM)

Are you forgetting that this is a topic about a suggestion to a game that does, in fact, include gladiatorial death arenas? "dont be afraid to die" or some such is included in the title of the asset. And also if by occasionally you mean several times a year then yeah.

Edit: just ran the math on the expected number range of people who died fighting (or were executed in) in the famous roman collosseum and it averages between 1-3 people per day depending on source.

Second edit: and im not gonna respond to your bullshit again if you try and ignore what this topic is about or skip over everything you have no defense against. This is not a topic about what is moral or most efficient, this is not a topic for how effective banning things are, this is a topic about 'i think it would add something to the game to be able to try to ban things and social engineer'. If you wanna talk about what the side effects of such a ban should be based on the real world, use real world **** and math rather than just being a lazy contrarian and saying "youre wrong" when you dont know what youre talking about.



zgrssd -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/14/2021 3:24:16 PM)

quote:

Are you forgetting that this is a topic about a suggestion to a game that does, in fact, include gladiatorial death arenas? "dont be afraid to die" or some such is included in the title of the asset.

"In a sport or game, sudden death (also sudden-death or a sudden-death round) is a form of competition where play ends as soon as one competitor is ahead of the others, with that competitor becoming the winner. Sudden death is typically used as a tiebreaker when a contest is tied at the end of regulation (normal) playing time or the completion of the normal playing task."
Yet despite the use of the term "death", the loosing team never ends up dead.

For all we know, "We are not afraid of death" is really just a slogan they used during building. It is not like I would expect a Wrestler or Boxer to go on camera and say "Oh yes, I am totally afraid of death!" while in character.
From my point of view, Boxing, Kickboxing and Wrestling are mostly duels. With better medical care and better enforced "no killing or permanent injury" rules. They are modern Gladiatoral arenas.

It is not impossible it is actually death battles in that arena. But it is also not particulary likely.



Nexira -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/14/2021 5:23:08 PM)

quote:

and im not gonna respond to your bullshit again if you try and ignore what this topic is about or skip over everything you have no defense against

Learn to read dude.



BlueTemplar -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/14/2021 5:26:22 PM)

[image]https://media2.giphy.com/media/9Pz61S3nVV7ByrPewM/giphy.gif[/image]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmGe5-FtrVg



Hoggypare -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/14/2021 6:10:56 PM)

quote:

Every time i run this game i get to the point where im civilized, and then get really annoyed that i cant enforce my nations new civilized morals on the less civilized. I want to destroy the brothels and arenas in my newly conquered territory, since they are now in a technological empire and should enjoy the state sanctioned vices instead! (in 20 turns when i feel like i can spare the resources. Or never if i forget. But no law breaking now!) It really clashes with the feel im going for in every empire i play that there is no way to interact with the private stuff aside from nationalizing specific industries. If i could outlaw casinos, brothels, libraries, etc that would be really cool for RPing my empire. Maybe just a little tab of the various industries somewhere in the asset management screen where you can check/uncheck what private industries will build, and then an icon to destroy buildings somewhere on asset itself. (then if you wanted to be extra cool, a second tab for if unincorporated zones can build it. Kind of like casinos on indian reservations type of feel.


I like the idea of being able to destroy private assets if it incurs some kind of penalty (to happiness, but similarly it could drop Your commerce profile and/or raise government or enforcement profiles). Not only for RP reasons, but such functionality could be useful for managing population in less economically liberal oriented regimes.
Outlawing specific vices could be fun, but I am afraid it would require much more complex mechanics base that would take time in implementation and it is not first priority as of the current state of the game. If that system appeared in the game, I'd like it to have far reaching consequences (influencing economy, profiles, crime, etc.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
All our data indicates the Roman arenas were - most of the time - the ancient equivalent to the World Wrestling Association. It was all just a show.
There have been executions and slave fights of course. But asuming thatmakes the "death areaneas" is like saying that Sports Stadiums worldwide are for executions, because China and some 3rd world countries ocassionally use them for executions.

Aside from the fact that Your claim is simply wrong and Your arguments make no sense, gladiatorial fights still were outlawed (later in the Empire due to Christian influences), regardless of how much of a bloodsport they were - so it proves OP's point that regulating 'vices' is a repeating phenomenon in politics



zgrssd -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/14/2021 9:32:24 PM)

quote:

Aside from the fact that Your claim is simply wrong and Your arguments make no sense,

Do you got a source for such sweeping claims?
Because I provided my source. Wich lists it's own sources.

Thus far all I get from you is "you wrong". Wich is not really a basis for a discussion.



Hoggypare -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/14/2021 10:05:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

Do you got a source for such sweeping claims?
Because I provided my source. Wich lists it's own sources.

Thus far all I get from you is "you wrong". Wich is not really a basis for a discussion.

Sure, since i cannot post direct links - check the article entry Gladiator on wiki, for estimates of mortality - Life_expectancy, for references when it was banned - Decline (You can also find references to gladiatorial games being a religious ritual at first, akin to indirect human sacrifice - I am not sure if wrestling features human sacrifice, but if so I need to revisit it, because it might be more interesting then than I originally thought /s)
Normally I wouldn't link wiki, but it is a decently written article with academic apparatus, and frankly I do not care much about any 'debate' on that topic.
Because ultimately, this is a thread about a gameplay suggestion and all You do is take part in derailing the whole point - It boggles my mind why, even though it was explicitly said to You that all the discussions regarding morality and politics behind the regulation of 'vices' other unrelated topics are of no concern



Nexira -> RE: Destroy and outlaw specific private industries (3/14/2021 10:35:23 PM)

Do ya know if theres some way an OP can moderate his own post? because having an idiot keep trying to derail things is pretty nonproductive.



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