Which Techs do you rarely research? (Full Version)

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stockwellpete -> Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/4/2021 9:44:04 AM)

I am guessing that it might be some of the aircraft Techs e.g. Heavy Bomber and Long Range Aircraft. But are there any others you rarely research and why?



mdsmall -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/4/2021 6:17:41 PM)

I have never invested in Production Technology, since my reasoning is that if I have the MPPs to invest in one of the economic techs, Industrial Technology or Logistics would offer greater return on investment. (With version 1.04, there is an even greater reason to invest in Logistics). If the cost reduction from one increment of Production Tech were higher than 5% (or the cost of a chit was significantly lower than 100 MPPs) I might be tempted to do so. I'd be interested to know if other players invest in this tech.



Bavre -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/4/2021 7:14:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

I have never invested in Production Technology, since my reasoning is that if I have the MPPs to invest in one of the economic techs, Industrial Technology or Logistics would offer greater return on investment. (With version 1.04, there is an even greater reason to invest in Logistics). If the cost reduction from one increment of Production Tech were higher than 5% (or the cost of a chit was significantly lower than 100 MPPs) I might be tempted to do so. I'd be interested to know if other players invest in this tech.


That's not the only effect of the production tech! Because things like upgrade cost, replacement cost and most importantly for the late game also the NM reduction for troop losses are all based on the units base pricetag, production tech is well worth the investment imho.

Things I never researched:
Heavy bombers and logistics (before 1.04)

The rest greatly depends on the country in question, the enemy tech and generally just the overall situation.



mdsmall -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/4/2021 7:18:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bavre

That's not the only effect of the production tech! Because things like upgrade cost, replacement cost and most importantly for the late game also the NM reduction for troop losses are all based on the units base pricetag, production tech is well worth the investment imho.



Good to know! Thanks for sharing. Does anyone invest in Ground Attack tech for aircraft? Or Airship tech beyond level 1?



Chernobyl -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/4/2021 7:33:39 PM)

I research all the techs eventually. Heavy bombers is probably the very last one I get. Ground attack aircraft and recon bombers doing 1 de-entrenchment is pretty nifty late game. The ground attack bombers are also overpowered in terms of the de-moralization effect they have when upgraded. I'd get them early if there weren't other important techs to get first.

The question isn't so much about which techs to avoid as it is how many chits to invest in what order. Generally you want to have many chits researching a select few techs and not spread out your chits trying to research everything at once. Certain techs can't be accelerated (Infantry Weapons) so that's a major downside to investing early in it. Other techs have a high number of maximum chits (trench warfare has 4) which lets you power through it. I usually put the maximum 4 chits into trench warfare and even when I'm trying to research level 5 I still have 3 chits going (so I invest a total of 7 chits, and once it finishes level 5 I cancel the excess 2 chits). If you only invest 5 total chits, you are going to wait absolutely forever for that last level of trench warfare to finish, and it's actually a helpful tech to get believe it or not. This is especially true for Russia Austria and Ottomans who have slower research rates for the higher levels of any tech.



hottegetthoff -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/4/2021 7:49:10 PM)

I think airship tech isnt bad, if you use it for naval spotting, although i think that germany should probably start with level 1 in comparison to all other countries, as it kind of doesnt make sense to equate their blimps in 1914 to equivalents from other nations.

Spying tech i never appreciated, production technology is meh, industrial tech is just better.
As CP, i rarely invest in ASW past level 1.
Mobility isnt useful for the most part, best use would be for Ottomans/expeditionary force for them from ther nation. Anti aircraft tech also doesnt seem useful, since Ground Attack Aircraft arent widely used. AA could be useful on warships though. Long Range aircraft is mediocre, with its niche uses, (affects Seaplane Tender) and gives you some value, but not a priority tech at all.

One could make the argument that Naval weaponry is not that good, as the combat between capital ships still requires similar amounts of units to pour in, the ratios of units you need to use dont change in a big way. I feel like it gives most value to weaker ships, as they get better results when defending, can finish off capital ships more consistently.

Heavy bombers are the tool to use to beat a weaker economy into submission by the end of the war, which is a problem. CP dont have many such countries left by the time you get it (maybe Italy) and the obvious target for the entente is the Ottomans. So they have their niche, they need some changes.



Bavre -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/4/2021 8:59:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bavre

That's not the only effect of the production tech! Because things like upgrade cost, replacement cost and most importantly for the late game also the NM reduction for troop losses are all based on the units base pricetag, production tech is well worth the investment imho.



Good to know! Thanks for sharing. Does anyone invest in Ground Attack tech for aircraft? Or Airship tech beyond level 1?




Absolutely! At level 2 your bombers will deentrench. Ground attack bombers with Ground Attack 2 also do 45 demoralisation. In the late game grind when all remaining frontlines are packed with units basically everything that can do something from afar gets much more useful.
Airships are the best scouts in the game. Max lvl they have naval vision 7!



Tanaka -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/5/2021 5:15:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

I research all the techs eventually. Heavy bombers is probably the very last one I get. Ground attack aircraft and recon bombers doing 1 de-entrenchment is pretty nifty late game. The ground attack bombers are also overpowered in terms of the de-moralization effect they have when upgraded. I'd get them early if there weren't other important techs to get first.

The question isn't so much about which techs to avoid as it is how many chits to invest in what order. Generally you want to have many chits researching a select few techs and not spread out your chits trying to research everything at once. Certain techs can't be accelerated (Infantry Weapons) so that's a major downside to investing early in it. Other techs have a high number of maximum chits (trench warfare has 4) which lets you power through it. I usually put the maximum 4 chits into trench warfare and even when I'm trying to research level 5 I still have 3 chits going (so I invest a total of 7 chits, and once it finishes level 5 I cancel the excess 2 chits). If you only invest 5 total chits, you are going to wait absolutely forever for that last level of trench warfare to finish, and it's actually a helpful tech to get believe it or not. This is especially true for Russia Austria and Ottomans who have slower research rates for the higher levels of any tech.


Oh I quickly learned the only way to have a chance at winning the WW1 game is to put all chits into trench warfare immediately. The only way.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/5/2021 7:21:49 AM)

Read this on the WaW forum with a discussion about the nuts and bolts of Production Technology:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre
"It also therefore reduces the National Morale penalty when your units suffer casualties or are destroyed, as that is relative to the MPP cost of a unit."

Now this fact just elevated my opinion on production tech when strategizing research priorities...where with me anyway, production tech lagged behind with some countries that I'm playing, depending on circumstances and what I surmise my opponent is doing.

This was something I never considered when thinking about Production vs something else to research and spend my MMP's on. Very interesting indeed.



lwarmonger -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/5/2021 11:56:18 PM)

Priorities for majors:
Trench Warfare
Industry
Production
Artillery (this and the ammo techs are your war winner right here)
Gas/Munitions
Naval weapons (if planning on decisive fleet battle)
Naval Doctrine (same above)
Submarine tech or ASW (depends on Entente or CP)
Infantry Weapons
Intelligence (this boosts research as well... it really is super useful)
Mobility (this is a huge force multiplier in trench warfare... it allows you to rotate units through on the offense and exploit breakthroughs, but isn't too useful until late war when you have the MPP's to upgrade your units and the artillery to create the holes)
Command
Infantry Warfare
Tank Warfare
Tanks
Everything else



Chernobyl -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/6/2021 12:50:37 AM)

It varies by country but in general in order of importance*:

Trench Warfare
Artillery Weapons
Industrial Tech
Gas/Shell Production
Spying/Intel (I only get this for one country)
Infantry Weapons
Command&Control
----------
Infantry Warfare (I believe more important for nations that start at 0, less important for Germany)
Logistics? (almost completely just for the arty shells, plus it's cheap; less important if you start at 2 logistics than if you start at 0)
----------
Aerial Warfare
Ground Attack Aircraft
Production Tech
Mobility (can be cool to boost some late game attacks)
-----------
Naval stuff (you can keep your whole navy in port all game and still win)
Air Range
Fighter upgrades
Tank Doctrine? (Tanks are cool but they get focused down by artillery and aircraft and you can only build a couple)
Airships?
-----------
Antiaircraft? (really not sure where to place this, perhaps a tier above)
Tank upgrades

Unsure:
Amphibious Ops
Heavy Bombers


----------- = big gap in value
"Importance" here means how valuable it is but also considers how cheap and effective research chits are. Trench Warfare tech is super powerful partly because it's cheap and you can research up to 4x at once.
And again, you want to FOCUS your tech research, not spread out. Nations like Austria and Ottomans have limited tech pools so they need to make some tough choices. Not sure why Russia gets such a giant 1600 tech pool but I digress :D Usually I only invest 2 chits into Gas/Shell production as Austria in order to start on Command/Control a bit earlier.



lwarmonger -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/6/2021 3:07:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

It varies by country but in general in order of importance*:

Trench Warfare
Artillery Weapons
Industrial Tech
Gas/Shell Production
Spying/Intel (I only get this for one country)
Infantry Weapons
Command&Control
----------
Infantry Warfare (I believe more important for nations that start at 0, less important for Germany)
Logistics? (almost completely just for the arty shells, plus it's cheap; less important if you start at 2 logistics than if you start at 0)
----------
Aerial Warfare
Ground Attack Aircraft
Production Tech
Mobility (can be cool to boost some late game attacks)
-----------
Naval stuff (you can keep your whole navy in port all game and still win)
Air Range
Fighter upgrades
Tank Doctrine? (Tanks are cool but they get focused down by artillery and aircraft and you can only build a couple)
Airships?
-----------
Antiaircraft? (really not sure where to place this, perhaps a tier above)
Tank upgrades

Unsure:
Amphibious Ops
Heavy Bombers


----------- = big gap in value
"Importance" here means how valuable it is but also considers how cheap and effective research chits are. Trench Warfare tech is super powerful partly because it's cheap and you can research up to 4x at once.
And again, you want to FOCUS your tech research, not spread out. Nations like Austria and Ottomans have limited tech pools so they need to make some tough choices. Not sure why Russia gets such a giant 1600 tech pool but I digress :D Usually I only invest 2 chits into Gas/Shell production as Austria in order to start on Command/Control a bit earlier.


Chernobyl... why ground attack aircraft and aerial warfare before production tech? Production tech significantly increases how efficiently you use MPP's as well as saving sweet, sweet national morale (as mentioned above).

Also, to anyone else reading, I would clarify my order. As Britain I would always recommend researching naval weapons and doctrine. Britain can lose the war in an afternoon at sea. As Germany, only do it if you are planning on making a serious effort at sea. Nobody else should bother.



Chernobyl -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/6/2021 4:31:53 AM)

I don't really have a strong preference for the EXACT order of the less critical techs, in fact I'm sure sometimes I've clicked on production tech before aerial warfare. But I've found that oftentimes clicking production tech felt like a sub-optimal move. It doesn't provide a huge benefit unless you get several levels, and it doesn't research very fast unless you commit 3 chits to it, which I often don't have handy. I'm usually finishing up a bunch of other techs and get a spare 75 research. I'd rather start walking down the Aerial Warfare cul de sac than start walking the cross country highway that is all 5 levels of Production Tech, and start later when I have enough spare research cap to invest all 3 chits.

Because frankly one level of production tech isn't very good. It's only when you get 3+ that the discounts feel meaningful. And by the time I've got around to researching it, I have plenty of MPP so the discounts don't help as much as they would have early. They do reduce the NM damage you take when you lose a unit, which is nice. It's definitely worth getting, but I don't rush it.

Also, the sooner you get aerial warfare, the sooner you can start producing more bombers. Build limits increase for your minor allies too. Ideally you want to time your Ground Attack research so that it finishes just before your bombers get deployed, so you can immediately upgrade and go to work. If you research Production Tech before Aerial Warfare, the whole chain of events is delayed. It might make sense to start researching aerial warfare, and then if you get any free research limit you can invest a bit into production, then switch to ground attack when you think you can get to level 2 around the time your bombers finish.

Upgraded recon bombers and ground attack bombers are a bit overpowered in my opinion. If the game goes on long enough I get them for every nation.



lwarmonger -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/6/2021 4:42:11 AM)

Huh... I've never used or seen anyone use upgraded recon bombers or attack bombers at all. The most I or most other people seem to use airpower is to enhance artillery and prevent the reaction attack upon occupying an entrenched hex. I'll have to give it a try.



Bavre -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/6/2021 9:35:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lwarmonger

Huh... I've never used or seen anyone use upgraded recon bombers or attack bombers at all. The most I or most other people seem to use airpower is to enhance artillery and prevent the reaction attack upon occupying an entrenched hex. I'll have to give it a try.


What you describe is pretty much the earlygame use of planes. Actual air power only becomes important in the mid- to lategame, assuming the game is not already decided by that point. By then everything that can deentrench + demoralize becomes very valuable, because everyone is so deeply dug in, that normal attacks are just not possible anymore.



lwarmonger -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/6/2021 11:36:15 PM)

I wasn't aware that airpower could ever de-entrench units... doesn't make that much sense to me, since it was never anything other then a peripheral arm in WWI.

That being said, I've found pretty much every game I've played has been decided by mid-1916, so perhaps that is why it hasn't been too important.



Bavre -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/7/2021 5:23:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lwarmonger

I wasn't aware that airpower could ever de-entrench units... doesn't make that much sense to me, since it was never anything other then a peripheral arm in WWI.

That being said, I've found pretty much every game I've played has been decided by mid-1916, so perhaps that is why it hasn't been too important.


In case you're curious and want to check their stats, the Ludendorff campaign starts with maxed out bombers.



mdsmall -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/7/2021 9:50:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lwarmonger

I wasn't aware that airpower could ever de-entrench units... doesn't make that much sense to me, since it was never anything other then a peripheral arm in WWI.



In War in Europe in the 1.18 patch Ground Attack weapons were given the ability to de-entrench when they reached level 2. Perhaps the same ability was carried over into WW1 game. But I agree, it doesn't make much sense given the rudimentary level of air power in WW1.



Bo Rearguard -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/7/2021 11:32:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

But I agree, it doesn't make much sense given the rudimentary level of air power in WW1.


You Hunz, bewarez my m1ghty de-entrenching tool.

[img]https://nzhistory.govt.nz/files/styles/fullsize/public/cockpit-bombadier.jpg[/img]

Frankly, I've never found the MMP funds to invest in things like Ground Attack and Heavy Bombers. It seems like some other sector of the war economy is always screaming for the cash and it's late as it is.



stockwellpete -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/8/2021 8:19:32 AM)

I have read in several places now that many of the matches in MP do not last beyond 1916. I am sure that there are a number of reasons for this, including artillery still being very over-powered, but I think being able to buy multiple research chits for many of the Techs must also be part of the explanation. I am beginning to look at ways of slowing research down a bit, say, restricting Trench Tech or Submarine Tech chits to 2 at any one time. You need to leave some scope for "gameplay" and alt-history variation, but maybe some of the investment choices should be reduced a bit?

The main stand-out thing I have learnt from this thread is that aircraft should not be able to de-entrench units in the later stages of the war. Might that be considered for a change?



Bavre -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/8/2021 4:26:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

I have read in several places now that many of the matches in MP do not last beyond 1916. I am sure that there are a number of reasons for this, including artillery still being very over-powered, but I think being able to buy multiple research chits for many of the Techs must also be part of the explanation. I am beginning to look at ways of slowing research down a bit, say, restricting Trench Tech or Submarine Tech chits to 2 at any one time. You need to leave some scope for "gameplay" and alt-history variation, but maybe some of the investment choices should be reduced a bit?

The main stand-out thing I have learnt from this thread is that aircraft should not be able to de-entrench units in the later stages of the war. Might that be considered for a change?


In my limited experience MP matches may not be over in 1916, but most of them will definitely be decided by then. The longest balanced phase I had so far lasted till autumn 16.



lwarmonger -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/8/2021 5:21:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

I have read in several places now that many of the matches in MP do not last beyond 1916. I am sure that there are a number of reasons for this, including artillery still being very over-powered, but I think being able to buy multiple research chits for many of the Techs must also be part of the explanation. I am beginning to look at ways of slowing research down a bit, say, restricting Trench Tech or Submarine Tech chits to 2 at any one time. You need to leave some scope for "gameplay" and alt-history variation, but maybe some of the investment choices should be reduced a bit?

The main stand-out thing I have learnt from this thread is that aircraft should not be able to de-entrench units in the later stages of the war. Might that be considered for a change?


I agree with all of this. Personally, I think for WWI most techs should be Max 1 research chit, with maybe 2 allowed for trench warfare. As things are, by early 1916 I've maxed out every essential tech, and that makes combat very decisive. Slowing things down research wise would make trench lines harder to break until 1917-18, and also cause people to be a bit less focused in their research.

Also, airpower shouldn't be able to de-entrench units. Artillery, tanks, and drowning trenches in oceans of blood should be the three ways into a trench line.



Tanaka -> RE: Which Techs do you rarely research? (3/8/2021 7:26:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

But I agree, it doesn't make much sense given the rudimentary level of air power in WW1.


You Hunz, bewarez my m1ghty de-entrenching tool.

[img]https://nzhistory.govt.nz/files/styles/fullsize/public/cockpit-bombadier.jpg[/img]

Frankly, I've never found the MMP funds to invest in things like Ground Attack and Heavy Bombers. It seems like some other sector of the war economy is always screaming for the cash and it's late as it is.


[:D][:D][:D]



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