Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (Full Version)

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DasTactic -> Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (3/11/2021 8:39:32 PM)

At present, when starting on Tech 3, the recycler and transport infrastructure is privately run. On higher difficulties, you don't have any tax income. So there is a desperate need for $$$ right from turn 1.

And so there really only seems like one way of playing the game:
1. Buy the recycler.
2. Start selling Rare Metals to survive.

This is really 'gamey' and there is really zero strategic choice on how to approach the game starting on Tech 3. I don't understand why the player doesn't start with at least the Recycling Facility. And I'd be throwing in the Truck Transport as well.

Because there is basically only one way of playing a Tech 3 start it has very diminished interest for me. Unfortunately though, new players tend to start here as well making the game exponentially harder if they don't know to purchase the recycler right from the start.



BlueTemplar -> RE: Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (3/12/2021 9:05:08 AM)

I don't know about the highest difficulty level, but on hard it seems to be perfectly viable to keep the recycling facility and the truck transport private.
(Depending on your starting conditions of course, which can vary wildly.)

In fact in my current game on hard I did just that, and I don't think that was a mistake. My city ruins didn't have a lot of scavenging points anyway, and I rushed Metal Soil Filtration. In parallel I got quite a bit of money from coaxing the private sector into building a Light Industry, which I then upgraded to lvl 2 with the Fate Eager Industrialist Stratagem. And going Meritocracy would give a bonus to that private production.

Meanwhile the traders don't even want the Rare Earths any more and the private industry is planning to upgrade their Transport Hub to lvl 3.

New players don't (shouldn't) start on higher difficulties anyway.

But the biggest issue with your suggestion is that there's no way to give these (and other) assets back to the private economy, even if you wanted to.

Though I don't understand why the Scavenging Community only has one level ?



Maerchen -> RE: Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (3/12/2021 10:59:19 AM)

How do you survive logistics hell with a private truck station only in your capital?

And to DasTactic: When you have some juicy minors to assimilate nearby, the Cr. you get from doubling your population tax revenue and possible other resources can make up for not taking the recycler. You need luck in zone placement, though.

I think of the private recycler/truck station setup as just another layer of difficulty. We all start in a Mad Max dystopian future, and overcoming survival stress is fun and challenging.




BlueTemplar -> RE: Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (3/12/2021 11:22:35 AM)

In my case there was barely any logistics hell because I couldn't expand, being hemmed in by an aggressive nearby Major. I'm going tall instead. In other cases, I guess rail is an option. Also if you go far enough you'll have to build other truck stations anyway...



zgrssd -> RE: Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (3/12/2021 3:47:03 PM)

Techlevel 3 is really just a Ultra Hard Mode.
It takes what can already be a bad start based on the other settings and luck of the Neighbours - and then takes away the starting recycler, starting Truckstation, and even the most basic technology like Power generation.

Once I tried TL 4 for the first time, I never went back.



Maerchen -> RE: Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (3/12/2021 3:59:23 PM)

I always play Tech III. *shrug*



DasTactic -> RE: Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (3/12/2021 5:03:17 PM)

As zgrssd said, Tech 3 adds to the difficulty, but I find first-time players who come into my live-streams tend to start there which makes the games even more difficult for them.

And it is the first handful of turns I'm focussing on here - not extending into the mid-game. Rare metals only become cheap if someone has already flooded the market with them so selling them every three turns or so gets you through the early game.

As far as Truck Stations are concerned, the rules are different for logistics now and it is no longer a good idea to build a second station next to your city. It is now much better to control the logistics network yourself. Again, logistics is one of the areas in the game that new players struggle with so why make it even more difficult for them at tech 3. Or conversely, why aren't all the recyclers and truck stations set to private for the other tech levels (I'm definitely not advocating for that btw). Or perhaps just add another History setting to have the private sector running all the production and logistics at the start of the game - I'd be cool with that.

The point I'm trying to make here is that at Tech 4 or 5 the players have a wide range of strategic choices they can make from turn 1 that can start moving their game in different directions. Whereas at Tech 3 the player immediately has an income problem to address that they won't really be aware of until they are three turns in and have no $$$ unless they do some 'gamey' stuff in turn 1. Not a good way for new players to be introduced to the game.



zgrssd -> RE: Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (3/12/2021 5:17:24 PM)

Tech Level 3 should absolutely not be the default Techlevel.
Usually the default is the middle of 3 settings.

With Starting Zones and Councils it makes some sense not to start beyond the minimum. But not so for techlevel.



BlueTemplar -> RE: Recycler and Transport for Tech 3 Start (3/12/2021 5:35:43 PM)

Again, you can complain about money issues due to a starting 0% on some taxes on higher difficulties,
but this does NOT affect a new player who (hopefully) won't be starting on hard !

Since Tech 3 can be extra-hard due to randomness and relatively stronger minors & non-aligned, perhaps then the default Tech level should be 4 (and a warning be displayed for a player trying to start on Tech 3). EDIT : ninjaed !

I have an even better idea for the assets :
All relevant assets (including Light Industry) should be able to flip (at some cost) between public and private versions.
There should be 3 different game settings :
- all (relevant) starting assets public
- all (relevant) starting assets private
- all (relevant) starting assets randomized between public and private

Finally, maybe some private assets should be made better ?
(I already mentioned the Scavenging Community, which, unlike all (?) other private assets, has 1 level instead of a maximum of 3.)

EDIT : Last but not least :
- (T3) starting income might need some balancing on higher difficulties ?
- "rare" earths should start out being traded at rock bottom prices, considering how nobody has any use for them early on besides for solar panels !



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