RE: Mediterannean war (Full Version)

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RFalvo69 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 9:57:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeepBlack
Many of you may have already seen it but if not,
it is quite startling to hear him in English.

Mussolini speaks in English

Mussolini also spoke German. Here is a video of him giving a speech in Berlin (with English subtitles):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPUMvD3imDc

Generally speaking, Mussolini was a really good writer (I'm talking about his style of course, not the contents). He could be bombastic when he wanted (and this is what he is famous for) but in everyday writing Mussolini showed a masterful ability to be always clear and to the point. He even had the habit of approving written proposals only after correcting the text with his red pen - a heritage of when he was a schoolteacher I guess.



RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 1:31:56 PM)

Since Little Bennie also spoke French, he could easily pass for an Italian Swiss person that also spoke English![;)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu5jS_LqnXk

Just don't ask me what he was saying!



RFalvo69 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 1:52:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognerd_INC

Probably could start a new thread "What is your dream game(s)".

I hope you get yours, Avalanche press has a board game on the naval actions of the med, I don't think it covers ground units though.

Avalanche Press
warspite1

That game looks pricey - but the counters also look extremely well presented... Thanks for sharing - I think I've found a Christmas present [:)]


I have the WWI version and it is a very good game - once you fill in the missing rules [8|] More than that, the counters (which are absolutely wonderful) double as excellent miniatures for tabletop games like "Fear God and Dread Nought" or "Seekrieg V".

Edit: There are some groups that actually do just like that. They use the operational part of the game for... well, simulating the naval operations. Then, when a naval battle ensues, they switch to their Naval Miniature Rules of choice.

Somewhere, years ago, there was a AAR of a game that used a scenario from AP's "Bismarck" where the Scharnhorst and the Guinsenau sortied from Brest while the Bismarck and the Prinz Eugen were trying to break out in the Atlantic. All the battles were then solved using Seekrieg V - air attacks included. The playthrough took six weeks. I looked for it, but after the cancellation of Yahoo groups I fear that a lot of stuff got lost.



Lobster -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 2:37:49 PM)

Holy check book Batman! $149.99!



RFalvo69 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 3:02:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Since Little Bennie also spoke French, he could easily pass for an Italian Swiss person that also spoke English![;)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu5jS_LqnXk

Just don't ask me what he was saying!

Well, what a wonderful find! The audio is really bad, but from what I gather, Mussolini addresses the fears that Italy could rearm and consider going to war as a solution for her problems. Mussolini points out that he was a soldier in WWI and so he knows what "war" really means. He then adds that as a politician, he became aware of how each country, winners and losers, was still suffering from the wounds of the Great War. These two experiences, put together, convinced him that "war" should never be seen as the solution to anything.

Mussolini also muses about how the scientific progress will, unavoidably, ensure that a Second World War will see even more suffering and destruction than the first one.

For these reasons (I'm still translating) Mussolini ensures that Italy will never initiate a new war. Even more, Italy will always be on the front line in any future disarmament talks.

The propaganda arrives in the last part. Italy, we are told, wants a long peace so that "the fruits of the Fascist regime can be consolidated and grow even more". The (Fascist) Italians, along with other the peoples, will be able to ensure peace and prosperity for all.

I'm not sure about the closure. Something about the fact that, in the modern World, "competition" (like in the exploration of new lands) is still an important part for the equilibrium of human spirit, but that it can be intended in a "sporty" way. I could be wrong, however, the audio is quite unclear.

Well, that was Mussolini on the international scene two years before Hitler took power.

DUH! I just found out that this could simply be the French version of this speech in English. It still lacks the last part, toh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow8SQQm7oVg

I'll leave my efforts untouched. I don't want to cheat [:)]



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 3:06:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
I am not in the slightest interested in modding WITP-AE for WITM.


I already knew that. I'm only pointing up that *only* some sort of Witp AE mod can simulate your theatre as we speak.

quote:

The land war is not ideally served (and this is recognised by some WITP-AE players themselves).


"I don't like the land system" and "the land system does not work" are two totally different things.

quote:

Yes, I want a huge level of detail from a WITM game, but I don't want that detail targeted in some of the areas that WITP-AE focuses on.


I suspect you want the naval side of things: convoy runs aka logistics aka the serious stuff, combat TFs sweeping the communication lines etc etc. You don't want to deal with your air squadrons on a daily basis perhaps. I assume you still want to push your land (infantry, engineers, mechanised and motorised) counters though.

Daily or weekly turns? You need the former for your detailed naval and air operations minimum.



ncc1701e -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 3:24:36 PM)

Is there not a scenario like this in TOAW IV? With the new naval rules, it could be fun.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 4:03:30 PM)

re Mussolini, you must watch a 1962 documentary by Rossellini and Prunas: Benito Mussolini Dalla marcia alla catastrofe.

One of my favourite docs ever.



ncc1701e -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 5:14:08 PM)

Regarding Mussolini, I recently read something about some letters sent by Churchill:
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/130917

True or not, we will never know I think.



RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 5:28:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Since Little Bennie also spoke French, he could easily pass for an Italian Swiss person that also spoke English![;)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu5jS_LqnXk

Just don't ask me what he was saying!

Well, what a wonderful find! The audio is really bad, but from what I gather, Mussolini addresses the fears that Italy could rearm and consider going to war as a solution for her problems. Mussolini points out that he was a soldier in WWI and so he knows what "war" really means. He then adds that as a politician, he became aware of how each country, winners and losers, was still suffering from the wounds of the Great War. These two experiences, put together, convinced him that "war" should never be seen as the solution to anything.

Mussolini also muses about how the scientific progress will, unavoidably, ensure that a Second World War will see even more suffering and destruction than the first one.

For these reasons (I'm still translating) Mussolini ensures that Italy will never initiate a new war. Even more, Italy will always be on the front line in any future disarmament talks.

The propaganda arrives in the last part. Italy, we are told, wants a long peace so that "the fruits of the Fascist regime can be consolidated and grow even more". The (Fascist) Italians, along with other the peoples, will be able to ensure peace and prosperity for all.

I'm not sure about the closure. Something about the fact that, in the modern World, "competition" (like in the exploration of new lands) is still an important part for the equilibrium of human spirit, but that it can be intended in a "sporty" way. I could be wrong, however, the audio is quite unclear.

Well, that was Mussolini on the international scene two years before Hitler took power.

DUH! I just found out that this could simply be the French version of this speech in English. It still lacks the last part, toh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ow8SQQm7oVg

I'll leave my efforts untouched. I don't want to cheat [:)]


Grazie. [:)]



RangerJoe -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 5:31:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Regarding Mussolini, I recently read something about some letters sent by Churchill:
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/130917

True or not, we will never know I think.


Thank you.

Interesting. But then again, consider the time that they were sent and the recent threat from the East.



RFalvo69 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 6:04:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Regarding Mussolini, I recently read something about some letters sent by Churchill:
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/130917

True or not, we will never know I think.


The death of Mussolini is the stuff conspiracy theories are made of. The Allies had made clear to the leaders of the Italian resistance that they wanted him alive - for obvious reasons. He was, instead, summarily killed.

Why? Maybe the simpler solution is the real one: by then he was so hated that it was an impulse killing. Why to kill his mistress too (and hang her body along with his) if not out of hate?

Or you can consider the fact that the Italian resistance was actually a mosaic of people coming from all kind of backgrounds and with conflicting interests. A percentage of them were ex-Fascisti. To further compound the problem, many jobs required for you to be part of the Fascist party - no matter what your ideology was - so many honest people were "Fascisti" (and then ex-Fascisti) out of necessity, not ideology.

I guess that we will never know the truth.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/13/2021 6:09:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Regarding Mussolini, I recently read something about some letters sent by Churchill:
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/130917

True or not, we will never know I think.



An arch reactionary bourgeois aka Churchill admiring the most extreme and reactionary petty bourgeois movement aka fascism 🤣

The assassination part, I don't get it. As if Benito was always carrying these letters...



ncc1701e -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 8:55:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

The assassination part, I don't get it. As if Benito was always carrying these letters...


Yes, this is strange. But, as always, history is rewritten by the victors.



fran52 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 2:30:57 PM)

quote:

But Rommel and his AK seem the only stars in this front

For sure but in the what if could be added a better coordination between Italian air force and navy,that was one of the problem.
The Italian could not follow the stupid order of Mussolini to advance out of supply in the first offensive(saving troup),Spain join the Axis force and so on.
In my opinion,till the invasion of Sicily ,could be an interesting theatre.
it should be mentioned that if Hitler had concentrated his forces in this theatre,instead to invade URSS,the axis would have all the oil and the British would be in big trouble without oil and Suez.



fran52 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 2:44:26 PM)

quote:

The death of Mussolini is the stuff conspiracy theories are made of. The Allies had made clear to the leaders of the Italian resistance that they wanted him alive - for obvious reasons. He was, instead, summarily killed.

I'm from Como.On this lake was captured and killed Mussolini.Even today, stories about these facts circulate.
Perhaps, abroad, it is not known that two partisans who participated in the capture were also victims of the partisans themselves.
Their bodies were disappeared in the lake.
The name of this 2 are Capt.Neri nick name of Luigi Canali and Gianna nick name of Giuseppina Tiussi,two inconvenient partisans for
the communist.



Bo Rearguard -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 3:03:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


Yes, this is strange. But, as always, history is rewritten by the victors.


History gets successfully rewritten by the losers sometimes as well. The "Lost Cause" ideology of the Confederacy, or the "Stab-in-back myth" of post World War One Germany being the most well known examples.



ncc1701e -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 3:22:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fran52

quote:

The death of Mussolini is the stuff conspiracy theories are made of. The Allies had made clear to the leaders of the Italian resistance that they wanted him alive - for obvious reasons. He was, instead, summarily killed.

I'm from Como.On this lake was captured and killed Mussolini.Even today, stories about these facts circulate.
Perhaps, abroad, it is not known that two partisans who participated in the capture were also victims of the partisans themselves.
Their bodies were disappeared in the lake.
The name of this 2 are Capt.Neri nick name of Luigi Canali and Gianna nick name of Giuseppina Tiussi,two inconvenient partisans for
the communist.


Indeed, that is why there is so much speculation even today.



Zovs -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 6:46:45 PM)

I don’t know what other thoughts are on this one but I am seriously thinking of taking the plunge next week. It’s close. Maybe.

https://johntillersoftware.com/StrategicWar/WarSouthernFront.html




DeepBlack -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 8:07:59 PM)

[img]https://i.imgur.com/lyp372O.jpg[/img]



ncc1701e -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 8:29:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I don’t know what other thoughts are on this one but I am seriously thinking of taking the plunge next week. It’s close. Maybe.

https://johntillersoftware.com/StrategicWar/WarSouthernFront.html




Is it land warfare only? I don't see anything regarding the naval aspect of the game.



fran52 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 8:35:16 PM)

quote:

I don’t know what other thoughts are on this one but I am seriously thinking of taking the plunge next week. It’s close. Maybe.

Yes is very close but,if i'm not wrong,the war on the see is not treated.Tiller's games are interesting but unfortunately lacking in AI. we have games where is too easy to win and other,like WITE,where is impossible playing against AI.



Fred98 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 10:11:28 PM)

20 years ago a game named "Uncommon Valor" was released. I thought it was a great game. There was talk of a "Uncommon Valor for the Med" but it did not eventuate. I would be the first to get such a game.

Obviously the start date would be June 1940 as the Italians invaded southern France and the end date would be June 1944 when Rome fell.

There was a lot of naval actions, air actions and ground actions and would make for a great wargame.
.



TulliusDetritus -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/14/2021 11:11:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
Is it land warfare only? I don't see anything regarding the naval aspect of the game.


Only land, I suspect. They have some purely naval games but this has to be just land warfare. With a very simplified air [support?] and naval [shore bombardment?] approach. Interesting game indeed.



Zovs -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/15/2021 12:29:26 PM)

Yes that game is only land I believe.

The other game that I do have and that I do want to like like is the Schwerpunkt game WWIIE (World War II Europe). It has naval, air and land components, it has a 102 scenarios and campaigns (not all are complete), its still being worked on (i.e. patches and finishing up the scenarios), it has an AI and FOW, but it's UI is very hard to get used to, the scrolling at different map views (see below) is horrible, the counter art work is very plain and unattractive, nothing it seems is modifiable.

Here is some screen shots (sorry I have a 4k monitor so some may seem big).

This is the scenario/campaign selection screen:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/Q5HS6W5.png[/img]

The full North African campaign description:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/YN1rEZy.png[/img]

The Map Europe view:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/YzmU5zt.png[/img]

The High Map level view (part one):
[img]https://i.imgur.com/KuGkown.png[/img]

The High Map level view (part two):
[img]https://i.imgur.com/a5aXVU1.png[/img]

The Med level map view:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/R5OFdgI.png[/img]

The Low level map view:
[img]https://i.imgur.com/0Dtit7h.png[/img]


I really, really want to like the game, but the UI, the counters being ugly and the sluggishness of the game puts me off.




fran52 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/17/2021 6:42:06 AM)

quote:

The other game that I do have and that I do want to like like is the Schwerpunkt game WWIIE (World War II Europe). It has naval, air and land components,

But for the supply a convoy system is planned?Naval battles make sense if there is protection of convoys, at least in the Mediterranean ,conversely to the Pacific.
Perhaps a game that includes this is World in Flames but infortunately is without AI.



timmyab -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/17/2021 8:46:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Detailed naval warfare on an individual ship basis, and land units at battalion size.

Sounds good. I would prefer 3 mile per hex regimental scale though. Breakable into battalions if needed with battalion support units. Even at that scale it would be a brain buster of a game.



warspite1 -> RE: Mediterannean war (3/20/2021 7:43:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: timmyab


quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1
Detailed naval warfare on an individual ship basis, and land units at battalion size.

Sounds good. I would prefer 3 mile per hex regimental scale though. Breakable into battalions if needed with battalion support units. Even at that scale it would be a brain buster of a game.

warspite1

The TOAW IV scenario for this campaign was at battalion level and this worked very well. I think that is one of the beautiful things about this whole campaign; the units involved were relatively small in number. This allows more detail without being unmanageable - which is important as every single naval vessel needs to be represented.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4413713






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