RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played?

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DeepBlack -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 6:06:35 PM)
Drang Nach Osten - An old monster board game. Similar to getting too high and ordering six Big Macs to assuage the munchies, then realizing there is no way in hell you can eat all those Big Macs.

Platoonist -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 6:17:26 PM)
The Longest Day by Avalon Hill. Not nearly as complicated as some monster games but bad enough.

RangerJoe -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 6:21:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DeepBlack Drang Nach Osten - An old monster board game. Similar to getting too high and ordering six Big Macs to assuage the munchies, then realizing there is no way in hell you can eat all those Big Macs. Speak for yourself about you lack of eating ability. [;)]

Zovs -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 6:31:30 PM)
ASL But being persistent for 30+ years pays off and the complexity fades away. The Europa Series, each part of the game system is easy to understand but putting it all together makes it complex. Battlelines Air Force, even though the map was blank, figuring out the altitude in your head and range to target was too much when I was a teenager. Ney vs Wellington (and Cassino), the elevation and LOS was a complex nightmare for a 17 year old.

MrsWargamer -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 6:42:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Platoonist The Longest Day by Avalon Hill. Not nearly as complicated as some monster games but bad enough. Really? That's one of the reasons I like it. Plain mechanics. Now finding a 5'x5.5' playing surface is tricky. And a spot to store the set up charts is trouble. And setting up the game is hours of labour. I usually take a few DAYS to do it. But actually playing it is simple. Moving several thousand counters while tedious, is not complex.

MrsWargamer -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 6:50:47 PM)
Zeroing in on the term 'complicated', I won't really say ASL. It's a game system, but if you are not in the Pacific, you don't need those rules. No paradrop, don't need the rules. You don't need rules for artillery if there is none. If the scenario has no armour, you don't need the rules. The Guards counterattack isn't a hard scenario. So I will refrain from selecting the overly obvious choice. A3R is a complicated choice. Politics, production, economics, the timing of actions. Most operational scope wargames can be 'complicated' with so many choices. It's not always how many rules, but how complex is the play of the game. I'm willing to say Chess is complicated. Based on, ok, how often do you win?

RangerJoe -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 6:51:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs ASL But being persistent for 30+ years pays off and the complexity fades away. The Europa Series, each part of the game system is easy to understand but putting it all together makes it complex. Battlelines Air Force, even though the map was blank, figuring out the altitude in your head and range to target was too much when I was a teenager. Ney vs Wellington (and Cassino), the elevation and LOS was a complex nightmare for a 17 year old. I bet that you had some training in elevation and LOS later on . . . [;)]

MrsWargamer -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 6:52:48 PM)
For non-wargaming, well, I'd pick any mainstream role game system. For instance, the cliche Dungeons and Dragons. Just try being the person in charge of running it. That's the definition of complicated.

RFalvo69 -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 7:36:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer For non-wargaming, well, I'd pick any mainstream role game system. For instance, the cliche Dungeons and Dragons. Just try being the person in charge of running it. That's the definition of complicated. I think that it is a "vocation" of sorts. I started playing D&D when I was 15 and I was almost always the Dungeon Master. It is not complicated at all once you know the rules. The same with Call of Cthulhu. Of course the edition of the rules matters. Basic D&D is simple and straightforward. 3/3.5E was possibly the most complex version, but it was so full of creativity and ideas that I welcomed the complexity. It was a bit like ASL: you didn't need to know the specific rules for running a goblin character, but if a player really wanted to do it they were there. 4E was a disaster: D&D by J.J.Abrams, if you get my drift. I hear that 5E is very, very successful, but I never tried it.

ncc1701e -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 8:33:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RFalvo69 4E was a disaster: D&D by J.J.Abrams, if you get my drift. OT but I think J.J. Abrams is good at disaster. Star Trek, disaster. Star Wars, disaster. [:D]

RFalvo69 -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 9:16:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ncc1701e quote: ORIGINAL: RFalvo69 4E was a disaster: D&D by J.J.Abrams, if you get my drift. OT but I think J.J. Abrams is good at disaster. Star Trek, disaster. Star Wars, disaster. [:D] He took two established franchises and managed a unique stunt: in both, the third movie made half the money than the first. Which is quite the feat. Every successful franchise, from Harry Potter, to Marvel, to abysses like Fifty Shades of Grey, had one thing in common: the last movie was the most successful in terms of money. Resident Evil was my guilty pleasure but the last movie was beyond dreadful - and yet even it was the most successful of its run. It is not easy to be J.J. Abrams. You have to work hard. [:@]

UP844 -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 9:21:49 PM)
Air War by SPI... I still have nightmares about it [:D]

RFalvo69 -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 9:34:11 PM)
The most complicated and frustrating wargame I played was Harpoon - both the Third Edition by GDW and the current Fourth. There are simply too many things to track at the same time. The first time I tried to run a scenario as the referee I almost wanted to cry. "Wait, I have to check passive ESM because... reasons... Wait! Go back 15 minutes because... uh... just do that. Passive sonar? Why?! Ah, right! Where is the chart? No wait, first, let me look the stats of... uh... something... Does your towed array... Ah, sure, I was not supposed to mention it..." But it was not only the first time. It always went this way. I would like to see a "professionally run" game of Harpoon just to see how they manage to remain sane. Note that I own and played the two other games in the "Admiralty Trilogy": Fear God and Dread Nought, and Command at Sea. I like Seekrieg V more because I'm a rivet counter (and because it comes with the ship sheets precompiled...), but the former two games are simpler and faster, and thus allow for bigger engagements. Tabletop Harpoon is simply beyond me.

Perturabo -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 9:37:30 PM)
Luftschiff. Wasn't even able to start playing it.

Rebel Yell -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/14/2021 10:41:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UP844 Air War by SPI... I still have nightmares about it [:D] Absolutely this. /thread

Neilster -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/15/2021 12:06:48 AM)
World in Flames. By the time my friend and I had set up Global War, we'd generally be knackered and take a break for a few beers. We'd play, but as we were beginners, we were slow. Eventually my girlfriend would get sick of all the maps and charts set up and we'd put it away. Matrix World in Flames is radically faster to play. There's movement on the AI front too, for those not in the know. Steve is starting with the Barbarossa scenario but plenty of groundwork has been done by expert players for everything up to Global War.

rommel222 -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/15/2021 12:31:42 AM)
Greetings Grognerd_INC, I found Streets of Stalingrad 1st ed the toughest and Drang Nach Osten a close 2nd.

wodin -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/15/2021 1:09:27 PM)
I found UpFront distance mechanics abit mind boggling.. Canvas Eagles WW1 game is up there aswell.

MrsWargamer -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/15/2021 1:14:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Neilster World in Flames. By the time my friend and I had set up Global War, we'd generally be knackered and take a break for a few beers. We'd play, but as we were beginners, we were slow. Eventually my girlfriend would get sick of all the maps and charts set up and we'd put it away. Matrix World in Flames is radically faster to play. There's movement on the AI front too, for those not in the know. Steve is starting with the Barbarossa scenario but plenty of groundwork has been done by expert players for everything up to Global War. Nice to hear. I said that for the gamers who want the AI. Myself, my only barrier to purchasing a wargame is often, no hot seat equals no chance for me to play me. Not that I WANT to be stuck playing me vs me, but at least I'm as good as me :)

Rising-Sun -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/15/2021 7:16:08 PM)
Well i would say War in the Pacific 2nd Edition by DG, was the most expensive board game i ever bought, got this one from ebay for 250 USD, was opened, but the counters are brand new, nothing was missing. The retail value for that board is 450+ USD.

dox44 -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/15/2021 7:48:14 PM)
hands down "Fields of Fire" but i keep playing it...

Zovs -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/15/2021 8:04:34 PM)
I paid $299 for Total War (Waste) from HMS who took over GRD (was GDW) and 24 years latter I still have not received my copy. The most I paid for a board war game at one time was $325 for a used copy of SPI's CFNA. Sold it for $400. My ASL collection is roughly worth about 4k I think. I have most items from 1985 to 2015. Both official and 3rd Party. Mostly, not all of them. Assault is a pretty complex game, so was Up Front in some ways. But to me the most complex were the air games. Battleline's Airforce, Avalon Hill's Air Force 1980, and SPI's Air War: Tactical Modern Combat were all to complex for me. From Air Force manual: An aircraft which ends the Game-Turn in a non-Level Bank attitude must loose 100 feet of altitude unless it performed a non-banking maneuver during that Game-Turn. This altitude loss is determined during the Status Determination Phase following the plot of the non maneuvering banked aircraft, and affects its next turn's altitude. The Deflection Modifier This modifier is used to figure the effect of deflection. To determine the Deflection Modifier, figure the difference of the clock positions of the opposing aircraft relative to each other. Add the modifier shown for the resulting difference to the total Hit Table Modifiers. Ad one more if the firing aircraft currently meets Advantage Requirements. SPI's Air War [4.5] THE MOVEMENT, THROTTLE, AND ENGERY POINTS TRACK OF THE AIRCRAFT AND MISSLE CONTROL DISPLAY [4.51] The Movement, Throttle, and Engery Points Track carries three aircraft control markers: The Movement Allowance marker; the Throttle Setting marker; and the Engergy Point marker. or [8.55] Fade-Back Deceleration As indicated in the rules for Diving (10.4), an aircraft that pulls out of a dive has its Movement Allowance reduced to its Throttle Setting immediately, and does not undergo "Creep Deceleration" in the same way that aircraft pulling out of climbs undergo Creeping acceleration. However, an aircraft that pulls out of a dive may, on the turn that it enters Level Flight execute fade-back deceleration; this means that, for this Game-Turn only, the aircraft's Movement Allowance is only decreased by one point, rather than to the aircraft's Throttle Setting. On the next Game-Turn, the aircraft must decrease its Movement Allowance to its Throttle Setting; fade-back deceleration may only be executed on the Game-Turn that an aircraft pulls out of a dive.

76mm -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/15/2021 8:37:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs [8.55] Fade-Back Deceleration As indicated in the rules for Diving (10.4), an aircraft that pulls out of a dive has its Movement Allowance reduced to its Throttle Setting immediately, and does not undergo "Creep Deceleration" in the same way that aircraft pulling out of climbs undergo Creeping acceleration. However, an aircraft that pulls out of a dive may, on the turn that it enters Level Flight execute fade-back deceleration; this means that, for this Game-Turn only, the aircraft's Movement Allowance is only decreased by one point, rather than to the aircraft's Throttle Setting. On the next Game-Turn, the aircraft must decrease its Movement Allowance to its Throttle Setting; fade-back deceleration may only be executed on the Game-Turn that an aircraft pulls out of a dive. [X(] [&:] I'll pass!

RFalvo69 -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/15/2021 9:40:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 76mm quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs [8.55] Fade-Back Deceleration As indicated in the rules for Diving (10.4), an aircraft that pulls out of a dive has its Movement Allowance reduced to its Throttle Setting immediately, and does not undergo "Creep Deceleration" in the same way that aircraft pulling out of climbs undergo Creeping acceleration. However, an aircraft that pulls out of a dive may, on the turn that it enters Level Flight execute fade-back deceleration; this means that, for this Game-Turn only, the aircraft's Movement Allowance is only decreased by one point, rather than to the aircraft's Throttle Setting. On the next Game-Turn, the aircraft must decrease its Movement Allowance to its Throttle Setting; fade-back deceleration may only be executed on the Game-Turn that an aircraft pulls out of a dive. [X(] [&:] I'll pass! At least they are using the full terminology. The average paragraph in ASL says: "If your CFV moves using HW movement after BUF from a COOT HS, then..." Somehow ASLers consider this "a feature".

UP844 -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/16/2021 12:15:25 AM)
Air Force was not very complex by itself (my group used to play with 4-6 planes per player), but the rules could have been written better. quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs [8.55] Fade-Back Deceleration As indicated in the rules for Diving (10.4), an aircraft that pulls out of a dive has its Movement Allowance reduced to its Throttle Setting immediately, and does not undergo "Creep Deceleration" in the same way that aircraft pulling out of climbs undergo Creeping acceleration. However, an aircraft that pulls out of a dive may, on the turn that it enters Level Flight execute fade-back deceleration; this means that, for this Game-Turn only, the aircraft's Movement Allowance is only decreased by one point, rather than to the aircraft's Throttle Setting. On the next Game-Turn, the aircraft must decrease its Movement Allowance to its Throttle Setting; fade-back deceleration may only be executed on the Game-Turn that an aircraft pulls out of a dive. This is the reason I still have nightmares about this game [:D]. I have translated legal contracts and tender specifications with far less complex wording than the average SPI rulebook [:D]

Perturabo -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/16/2021 9:20:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zovs From Air Force manual: An aircraft which ends the Game-Turn in a non-Level Bank attitude must loose 100 feet of altitude unless it performed a non-banking maneuver during that Game-Turn. This altitude loss is determined during the Status Determination Phase following the plot of the non maneuvering banked aircraft, and affects its next turn's altitude. The Deflection Modifier This modifier is used to figure the effect of deflection. To determine the Deflection Modifier, figure the difference of the clock positions of the opposing aircraft relative to each other. Add the modifier shown for the resulting difference to the total Hit Table Modifiers. Ad one more if the firing aircraft currently meets Advantage Requirements. SPI's Air War [4.5] THE MOVEMENT, THROTTLE, AND ENGERY POINTS TRACK OF THE AIRCRAFT AND MISSLE CONTROL DISPLAY [4.51] The Movement, Throttle, and Engery Points Track carries three aircraft control markers: The Movement Allowance marker; the Throttle Setting marker; and the Engergy Point marker. or [8.55] Fade-Back Deceleration As indicated in the rules for Diving (10.4), an aircraft that pulls out of a dive has its Movement Allowance reduced to its Throttle Setting immediately, and does not undergo "Creep Deceleration" in the same way that aircraft pulling out of climbs undergo Creeping acceleration. However, an aircraft that pulls out of a dive may, on the turn that it enters Level Flight execute fade-back deceleration; this means that, for this Game-Turn only, the aircraft's Movement Allowance is only decreased by one point, rather than to the aircraft's Throttle Setting. On the next Game-Turn, the aircraft must decrease its Movement Allowance to its Throttle Setting; fade-back deceleration may only be executed on the Game-Turn that an aircraft pulls out of a dive. These kinds of games just beg for some kind of a series of training scenarios that would focus on learning these rules one by one or something.

RFalvo69 -> RE: What's the most complicated board wargame you ever played? (3/16/2021 10:12:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Perturabo These kinds of games just beg for some kind of a series of training scenarios that would focus on learning these rules one by one or something. I always suspected that J.D. Webster wrote his "Air Superiority" rules by looking at these games as an example of what not to do.

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