Arty accuracy (Full Version)

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Colonel von Blitz -> Arty accuracy (7/10/2001 2:14:00 PM)

Hey, Matrix...any possibility to increase some of the arty accuracy. At the moment the spread with some weapons is so huge that it makes them virtually useless; my "complaint" includes on-board SPAs and heavy mortars, off-board arty and rocket launchers are just about right IMHO at the moment. I made a test with german and russian SPAs and Hvy Mortars, the spread was 800 meters at worst and 350 meters at best...and fire was directed by FO who had LOS!!! I dunno about "real" accuracy of units like Hummel and Wespe, but heavy mortars should be able to fire more accurately...I mean, look at those results...nearly 800 meters spread at worst! Light and medium mortars on the other hand land their grenades right where they should...almost always to the target hex. Colonel von Blitz [ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Colonel von Blitz ]



Zeromus -> (7/10/2001 7:13:00 PM)

Question: Are you firing indirect with no spotters? If you have someone to spot and "guide" the artillery, it's a lot more accurate.



Jasper -> (7/10/2001 8:25:00 PM)

I think he forgot about the spotter. Remember the D Day, when the American bomber used carpet bombing....the effect on the German is not as worst as the American later face it. They have go over those crater created by themselve.... Only with spotter then can one zero into target with some effect, though the experience of the artillery unit do count, how can one have an expert spotter when the artillery unit cant even get the co-ordinate or charges properly...... :D



Larry Holt -> (7/10/2001 8:52:00 PM)

A looonnnggg time ago Paul addressed this. IIRC the best data he had was from a Brit Ordnance report that showed quite a lot of dispersion. WWII manufacturing and quality assurance techniques are not up to modern standards so the ammo, tubes, etc. are less accurate than are found in armies today. It seems odd that you find arty as is to be ineffective. I find that firing without a spotter I can cause quite a lot of surpression and some kills to troops spread out over several hexes. For the others please note that Col Blitz stated that he used a FO with LOS.



Colonel von Blitz -> (7/10/2001 10:15:00 PM)

quote:

It seems odd that you find arty as is to be ineffective. I find that firing without a spotter I can cause quite a lot of surpression and some kills to troops spread out over several hexes.
I find artillery fire to be very effective in terms of getting enemy suppressed. Actually that is the way I prefer, I hate arty that kills 10 men with one shot :D But the problem I was pointing out is the HUGE spread...if there is documents etc. stating that the spread CAN be over 500 meters WITH FO AND LOS (capital letters for those who have lousy eye-sight ;) ;) ) then I'll be satisfied with the current accuracy. Does it say how big that despersion could be in that source you named? Also, like I stated before, I'm satisfied with the accuracy of light and medium mortars, but what makes heavy mortars and SPAs so inaccurate?? Rocket launchers and off-board arty is another matter and I'm satisfied with them as they are now. Colonel von Blitz [ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Colonel von Blitz ]



Flashfyre -> (7/11/2001 8:16:00 AM)

At what ranges are you making the tests at? Most light mortars have effective ranges of less than 20 hexes; less chance of wind and weather affecing the trajectories, and shorter range means small errors in flight path do not result in extreme scatter. However, heavy mortars and SPA'a, firing at greater ranges, suffer more from wind, weather, and ammo differences(different weights of powder and warheads). These errors, small near the tube, get magnified with longer range, resulting in greater dispersion of the rounds. Also, with each fire, if the unit has not been blocked and stabilized sufficiently, there is lateral motion of the gun; this means that each shell is not leaving the tube at the same coordinate point as the others, which translates to greater scatter downrange. I have found that mortars, firing within 30 hexes of the tube, only scatter 2-3 hexes at most; that's 100-150 meters. But at max or near-max range, the scatter can be as great as 6-8 hexes; 300-400 meters. I haven't seen any miss by more than this...and most of my fires have been by FO without LOS.



Colonel von Blitz -> (7/11/2001 1:03:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Flashfyre: At what ranges are you making the tests at? Most light mortars have effective ranges of less than 20 hexes; less chance of wind and weather affecing the trajectories, and shorter range means small errors in flight path do not result in extreme scatter.
Range was the usual that I use in battle-situation too: 30 - 40 hex. Light mortars were tested at their max range.
quote:

I have found that mortars, firing within 30 hexes of the tube, only scatter 2-3 hexes at most; that's 100-150 meters. But at max or near-max range, the scatter can be as great as 6-8 hexes; 300-400 meters. I haven't seen any miss by more than this...and most of my fires have been by FO without LOS.
Do I once again just have to sit down, shut up and find myself the most unlucky SPWAW player alive?? :D :D Colonel von Blitz



Flashfyre -> (7/11/2001 6:51:00 PM)

Uhh...maybe, Colonel. :D But....you may have something there. I don't know. All I can give you is the data I have found. Sounds like some in-depth research needed here.



Larry Holt -> (7/11/2001 11:54:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Flashfyre: Uhh...maybe, Colonel. :D But....you may have something there. I don't know. All I can give you is the data I have found. Sounds like some in-depth research needed here.
Since you mention it. I am working on mortar research for OOB updates. If anyone can suggest sources for ranges, dispersion, frag radius, tactics used, etc. let me know



JTGEN -> (7/12/2001 3:32:00 AM)

I do not know of the accuracy of others arty in ww2, but the finnish one was newer as bad as it is in this game. And I would like it to be better to portray the way we used our scarce arty. It was one of the few adwantages we actually had.



rcread -> (7/14/2001 8:32:00 PM)

Artillery accuracy: Some important things to note about indirect fire are that the bigger the gun, the more accurate it is. 175mm, 8", and big naval artillery can put every round in the same hole, if the conditions are right. At the same time, however, nobody wants to do that. Artillery should have a big spread, although how big the spread should be is determined by the effective lethal radius of the round. You want the FFE to fall all over the target, not on the same parts of it over and over. There are many conditions that affect arty accuracy: - experience of the spotter - experience of the Bty CP - weather conditions (including even air density), and the experience of the Bty CP in calculating the effect of those conditions - experience of the Bty survey team - accuracy of the maps being used - accuracy of the country's computing system - accuracy of the gun itself, and the ammunition being used - charge (propelant) being fired (the higher the gharge, the better the accuracy) - wear of the guns (the more they've been fired, the more the barrels are worn, the less accurate they become) Do you really want someone to try factoring all these, and the many other things that affect artillery, into SPWAW?



ZinZan -> (7/14/2001 9:11:00 PM)

Hi Colonol von Blitz A couple of things to look at. what was the art score of the spotter, and what was the exp and art score of the firers? As someone has pointed out this can make a huge difference. However I must say that I have never seen a dispersion of 16 hexes before with any artillery onboard or offboard, with or without spotters :confused: Good luck finding the problem, btw which version of SPWaW were you using and which nationality and weapons?



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