RE: 3:00 a.m (Full Version)

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Hanny -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 7:37:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Much more extensive than I had ever imagined. +1 Really illuminates and expands my conception of this conflict. Definitely merits more research on my part.

I had previously assumed that the nature of a locked down security state would be seen as too risky and dissuade the majority of people from trying to infiltrate into Soviet controlled territory (i.e, the probability of being caught and killed would be perceived as too high).


Your welcome, always a red letter day when you find something new, good luck with your inquiry, perhaps so as to not clutter the thread,
use pm?

one last bit, there was a war crimes tribunal and US commission into mass executions by Russia of Nationlists in the days leading up to June 22, there were 4 LW pilots executed at Lowe pre war along with them so we know not all recon sorties went well.



loki100 -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 8:49:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Much more extensive than I had ever imagined. +1 Really illuminates and expands my conception of this conflict. Definitely merits a reassessment and more research on my part.

I had previously assumed that the nature of a locked down security state would be seen as too risky and dissuade the majority of people from trying to infiltrate (or participate in local cells) into Soviet controlled territory (i.e., the probability of being caught, tortured, and killed would be perceived as too high).


The Soviet Union was actually more porous than often assumed. The weak spot was the Comintern and the NKVD's willingness to recruit non-Soviets. In the main that paid off for them in terms of penetration of other states partly by those who worked as actual spies but also Commnunists simply prepared to pass information. But other intelligence agencies could use as a means to send perfectly plausible individuals back into the USSR.



Light4bettor -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 9:12:00 AM)

Loki, if I follow correctly, some of the non-Soviets recruited by the USSR would sent outside the USSR to spread disinformation and whatnot, and a portion of those would be turned into double agents by the Germans and sent back into the USSR?



loki100 -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 9:50:08 AM)

messier than that to be honest.

Some Communists fled to the USSR (a lot of Italians and Spanish for eg), were recruited by the NKVD and then returned to the west. You then got people like the UK Cambridge Spy ring who stayed in the West, often never joined the CP, and only fled to the USSR when they were exposed.

So in the main the Soviets gained, they ended up with very good practical intelligence at the level of individual factories in Germany (so they could track for eg the serial numbers of planes/tanks sent for repair) on the one hand or US/UK atomic secrets at the other.

The problem was not everyone who fled to the USSR were what they seemed. Now the NKVD was paranoid, always had the mindset that it was better to shoot someone innocent than allow some guilty to survive etc (which is why many foreign communists got caught up in the purges), but enough functioned for long enough for a decent flow of information to come out. Add on Soviet officials who were prepared to spy (for whatever reason) and, as ever, diplomatic cover was used for a fair degree of spying (Fitzroy McLean's Eastern Approaches has a lot on what he got up to in the mid-30s in Moscow and then in Central Asia). So add all that together, the boring material that could be discerned from the local newspapers (amazing how good they are for intelligence agencies) and so on, and it all added up.



Light4bettor -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 10:04:21 AM)

Thanks Loki,

Learning a lot. Thanks. Bringing this period of history to life in my mind and exposing its contours and depth. And of course, the unspeakable horrors, but also the humanity of it. (dont mean humanity in the humane sense, but the participants are made more real). Time for some tea and crackers! lol j/k.



teddybbeer -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 11:00:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


Feb 28 Army and Abwehr conference as to how to get the intel it he Army wanted, frame work of submissive operations worked out.Example 1 June 100 Estonians in Russian uniforms, walli 1 was AG North, in operation Erna were deployed from Finland to the Baltic states,



Well this is pure propaganda.
Wikipedia has some general information cant link it propely before 10th post [&:], numbers are little off but total 60 men were parachuted in (between 21.07 and 28.07) or by seaborne operation (10.07). All men had finnish uniforms and finnish weapons.




Hanny -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 12:16:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: teddybbeer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


Feb 28 Army and Abwehr conference as to how to get the intel it he Army wanted, frame work of submissive operations worked out.Example 1 June 100 Estonians in Russian uniforms, walli 1 was AG North, in operation Erna were deployed from Finland to the Baltic states,



Well this is pure propaganda.
Wikipedia has some general information cant link it propely before 10th post [&:], numbers are little off but total 60 men were parachuted in (between 21.07 and 28.07) or by seaborne operation (10.07). All men had finnish uniforms and finnish weapons.





wiki is not a reliable source, you would have been taught this at school and told not to use it as a cite.

In this case for the following reasons, wiki relates only post Declaration of war activity by Finnish units, so does not cover any pre war activity, for that you need to look at German 1941 acounts in which Abwehr equips 100 Officers and OR with Russian uniforms, coms and other equipment and employs them pre war, is sends them in two groups pre war from from Pellingi Island to Kumna Bay, one group is spotted and turns back, they later parachute in after war is declared and operate in Augviidu Tallinn, Narva regions.

I do like the notion that Nazi propaganda was so far forward looking tho.



Templer_12 -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 12:28:25 PM)

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...



daft -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 12:31:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

quote:

June 18, 41 Brandenburgers para drop into Suwalki to blow up rail lines along staboltky to Baranovitch, all captured and shot.


Hey Hanny,

First I have heard of this incident, any sources that I can read up on it? Not doubting you, but I'm surprised I never heard about it.

Online try a search for German sabotage team Brandunberger 800, it’s a Russian link with IK-PTZ RU in it, in book form F Kurowoski ( his other books are also excellent, perhaps the best for first hand accounts in his many books) has it in the Division history, The Brandenburgers Commandoes, German elite warrior spies,


I'm not going to argue you point, but be very wary with Kurowski.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af59LYC8BFs

https://www.academia.edu/37429738/The_War_One_Great_Adventure_The_Writer_and_Historian_Franz_Kurowski_2018_



Hanny -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 12:34:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...


A hot looking women?.........



Hanny -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 12:43:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: daft


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

quote:

June 18, 41 Brandenburgers para drop into Suwalki to blow up rail lines along staboltky to Baranovitch, all captured and shot.


Hey Hanny,

First I have heard of this incident, any sources that I can read up on it? Not doubting you, but I'm surprised I never heard about it.

Online try a search for German sabotage team Brandunberger 800, it’s a Russian link with IK-PTZ RU in it, in book form F Kurowoski ( his other books are also excellent, perhaps the best for first hand accounts in his many books) has it in the Division history, The Brandenburgers Commandoes, German elite warrior spies,


I'm not going to argue you point, but be very wary with Kurowski.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af59LYC8BFs

https://www.academia.edu/37429738/The_War_One_Great_Adventure_The_Writer_and_Historian_Franz_Kurowski_2018_



But he is no Paul Carrel tho is he, nor is a Spielberger or Jentz for different reasons, but if you know of an authors works with more first hand accounts from German participants, I’d love to know about them.

Ta for the links.



daft -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 12:51:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: daft


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

quote:

June 18, 41 Brandenburgers para drop into Suwalki to blow up rail lines along staboltky to Baranovitch, all captured and shot.


Hey Hanny,

First I have heard of this incident, any sources that I can read up on it? Not doubting you, but I'm surprised I never heard about it.

Online try a search for German sabotage team Brandunberger 800, it’s a Russian link with IK-PTZ RU in it, in book form F Kurowoski ( his other books are also excellent, perhaps the best for first hand accounts in his many books) has it in the Division history, The Brandenburgers Commandoes, German elite warrior spies,


I'm not going to argue you point, but be very wary with Kurowski.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af59LYC8BFs

https://www.academia.edu/37429738/The_War_One_Great_Adventure_The_Writer_and_Historian_Franz_Kurowski_2018_



But he is no Paul Carrel tho is he, nor is a Spielberger or Jentz for different reasons, but if you know of an authors works with more first hand accounts from German participants, I’d love to know about them.

Ta for the links.



Not overloaded with first hand accounts, but the later Glantz books are good, especially his "trilogy" on Stalingrad.

David Stahel's books are also well worth a read. Especially his Soldoers of Barbarossa if you want first hand accounts.



Templer_12 -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 12:56:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...


A hot looking women?.........

You'd have to think about it. At least she would be less complicated than WitE 2. [:D]



teddybbeer -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 1:12:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny



wiki is not a reliable source, you would have been taught this at school and told not to use it as a cite.

In this case for the following reasons, wiki relates only post Declaration of war activity by Finnish units, so does not cover any pre war activity, for that you need to look at German 1941 acounts in which Abwehr equips 100 Officers and OR with Russian uniforms, coms and other equipment and employs them pre war, is sends them in two groups pre war from from Pellingi Island to Kumna Bay, one group is spotted and turns back, they later parachute in after war is declared and operate in Augviidu Tallinn, Narva regions.

I do like the notion that Nazi propaganda was so far forward looking tho.



Its Kurtna bay and Aegviidu.. thats nowhere near to neighter Tallinn or Narva (well ~50kms from Tallinn.. [:)]). Unfortunately most of the information about Erna group are in estonian language and i have still less then 10 posts so i cannot post pictures/links, so directing to wikipedia seemed obvious. It is you dear sir who have been fallen victim of Soviet propaganda [:D]

... less than hour to go?



Speedysteve -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 1:13:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...


A hot looking women?.........

You'd have to think about it. At least she would be less complicated than WitE 2. [:D]


LOL.....there's no certainty in that [;)]



Nix77 -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 1:16:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

quote:

ORIGINAL: teddybbeer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


Feb 28 Army and Abwehr conference as to how to get the intel it he Army wanted, frame work of submissive operations worked out.Example 1 June 100 Estonians in Russian uniforms, walli 1 was AG North, in operation Erna were deployed from Finland to the Baltic states,



Well this is pure propaganda.
Wikipedia has some general information cant link it propely before 10th post [&:], numbers are little off but total 60 men were parachuted in (between 21.07 and 28.07) or by seaborne operation (10.07). All men had finnish uniforms and finnish weapons.





wiki is not a reliable source, you would have been taught this at school and told not to use it as a cite.

In this case for the following reasons, wiki relates only post Declaration of war activity by Finnish units, so does not cover any pre war activity, for that you need to look at German 1941 acounts in which Abwehr equips 100 Officers and OR with Russian uniforms, coms and other equipment and employs them pre war, is sends them in two groups pre war from from Pellingi Island to Kumna Bay, one group is spotted and turns back, they later parachute in after war is declared and operate in Augviidu Tallinn, Narva regions.

I do like the notion that Nazi propaganda was so far forward looking tho.



The Estonian sites date the Operation Erna to July, and there are no mentions about Soviet uniforms: http://www.estonica.org/en/Erna_group_and_Erna_battalions/

Any pre-war activity from Pellinki island would probably be documented by the Finns, but can't really find any such documents.

You're absolutely right about Wiki not being a reliable source (I was once reading the wiki article about Iron Maiden, and at that moment it was an Italian rock band with Vince Rhames as the lead vocalist). But it's also difficult to decide which sources to trust since any propaganda can be nullified with some more counter-propaganda :)


But anyway, since this is the release discussion thread, I was wandering what might be the difference between Mud and Heavy Mud in inches and is the ratio of clay to sand in the Ukraine being tracked in the game?


PS. Really excited about the release! Clicking refresh relentlessly on the product page! Huge thanks for the whole development team!



ranknfile -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 2:32:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

...


Clicking refresh relentlessly on the product page!



You should try not to be so impatient ....
.... I just happened to be passing by, that's all...
... however, perhaps I'll stick around for a bit.



Aurelian -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 2:38:11 PM)

10:36am here in Pennslyvania... T-24 minutes.



Hanny -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 2:40:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny


quote:

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...


A hot looking women?.........

You'd have to think about it. At least she would be less complicated than WitE 2. [:D]

Maybe I might have to think about, but then I’m an old fart, of course she won’t have a volume control or an off switch, 2 very bad bugs in the Eve model......



Firebri -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 2:42:10 PM)

It's 14:40 here in the UK lol



ranknfile -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 2:42:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi folks, I've checked in with the production and marketing teams today as we finalize everything with the store setup and do our last QA steps. The most likely release timing is around 11AM US Eastern time / 3PM UK time tomorrow. Obviously that is dependent on many factors but that's our best guess at this point.



I think by "best guess" what Mr. Rutins meant was "this is the definite time of release, hold me to it, if it doesn't come to pass feel free to storm my castle with pitchforks and torches."



Uriah -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 2:52:19 PM)

Now 10.50pm 25/3 here in Western Australia. Looks like a 26/3 delivery for me. But it gives me time to read the rules again in bed (all 500 odd pages) and then rise tomorrow to begin the onslaught. No doubt to restart in a few hours when I realise I have done everything wrong.



Templer_12 -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 2:53:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebri

It's 14:40 here in the UK lol

Since January 1st, 2021 things have been going differently over there on your island.
Relax, make yourself a cup of tea, dust off your Prince Charles portraits, water your roses... [:D]



Walloc -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 2:58:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hanny

But he is no Paul Carrel tho is he, nor is a Spielberger or Jentz for different reasons, but if you know of an authors works with more first hand accounts from German participants, I’d love to know about them.

Ta for the links.



When people like Roman Töppel tells you some thing, i would listen.
To quote from Wiki:

Former soldiers interviewed by Kurowski for his books noted that their accounts, as published, contained considerable distortion and embellishments and in many instances non-existent. One soldier, Rolf Kliemann, suggested improvements to Kurowski but these were ignored. Kliemann stated that "Kurowski just filled the facts with fanciful tales..."[34]



Erik Rutins -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 3:00:28 PM)

We're very close to setting the release live...



Remmes -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 3:01:48 PM)

Ready to download: bring it on!



dudefan -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 3:03:45 PM)

where is it


i want it



ranknfile -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 3:04:26 PM)

I'm all "tingly" - soon I will be 66 years old, yet I'm as excited as a "yute" on Christmas Day!



gekkoguy35 -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 3:05:35 PM)

F5! F5! F5!



Remmes -> RE: 3:00 a.m (3/25/2021 3:06:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ranknfile

I'm all "tingly" - soon I will be 66 years old, yet I'm as excited as a "yute" on Christmas Day!



That reminds me of stories I read about German soldiers feeling the jitters with the clock ticking towards 0315 am...waiting for the opening artillery barrage to start Barbarossa.



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