How to calibrate the counter values correctly

How to calibrate the counter values correctly (Full Version)

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chuckfourth -> How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/21/2021 1:38:12 AM)
Getting the first turn surprise rule right allows you to calibrate all the counter values because in their correct configuration they can be tested against the German historical first week performance. There is no difference between the German capabilities on week one and week two. The only difference was with the Russians apparently had about one third of their troops in barracks on day one. So the first turn surprise rule should just be that the RUSSIAN attack/defend values should be about one third less on day one. "Surprise" isn't a real thing the Russians were well aware of the German buildup. If this change is made and the Germans cant reach or overreach their historical penetrations that then shows you that the counter values are WRONG. When comparing German and Russian units on a equipment basis, the Russians look much better than they actually were, the game rightly takes poor leadership into account, but the Germans had a sophisticated radio network that made ALL their forces completely integrated, The Russians were still waving flags out of hatches, and jumping on horses. This is why the Germans cut the Russian forces to pieces in 41. The radio net acts as a massive force multiplier because all the components talk to each other and act as an integrated whole. The Russians still had a piecemeal WW1 army. Look I really like this game and I want WITE #2 to succeed where #1 didn't but it does seem prone to "overthink" the problem putting high level overreaching unnecessary "rules" into place to address issues that can be solved by looking more closely at the fundamentals. The game tends towards becoming if anything, too complex.

jacktimes2 -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/21/2021 2:15:03 AM)
One thing I have to disagree with is the notion that reducing troop levels by 33% linearly reduces a unit’s combat effectiveness by the same 33%.

chuckfourth -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/21/2021 4:25:17 AM)
Thank you for your reply jack Sure you are right this may well be the case, The important point is that on day one the Russians need to be diminished and the Germans remain the same as week 2.

Farfarer61 -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/22/2021 12:24:32 AM)
With at least two weeks supply of Privitin this seems historical.

chuckfourth -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/27/2021 7:05:53 AM)
Im sorry Fararer I dont understand your comment.

Hanny -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/27/2021 7:27:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckfourth Im sorry Fararer I dont understand your comment. Of course you don’t. Because your uniformed as to how the German Army operated in wartime.

bwheatley -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/27/2021 11:59:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckfourth Getting the first turn surprise rule right allows you to calibrate all the counter values because in their correct configuration they can be tested against the German historical first week performance. There is no difference between the German capabilities on week one and week two. The only difference was with the Russians apparently had about one third of their troops in barracks on day one. So the first turn surprise rule should just be that the RUSSIAN attack/defend values should be about one third less on day one. "Surprise" isn't a real thing the Russians were well aware of the German buildup. If this change is made and the Germans cant reach or overreach their historical penetrations that then shows you that the counter values are WRONG. When comparing German and Russian units on a equipment basis, the Russians look much better than they actually were, the game rightly takes poor leadership into account, but the Germans had a sophisticated radio network that made ALL their forces completely integrated, The Russians were still waving flags out of hatches, and jumping on horses. This is why the Germans cut the Russian forces to pieces in 41. The radio net acts as a massive force multiplier because all the components talk to each other and act as an integrated whole. The Russians still had a piecemeal WW1 army. Look I really like this game and I want WITE #2 to succeed where #1 didn't but it does seem prone to "overthink" the problem putting high level overreaching unnecessary "rules" into place to address issues that can be solved by looking more closely at the fundamentals. The game tends towards becoming if anything, too complex. Could you elaborate a bit on what you're asserting? What goals did you set for your T1 advance? What did you actually get? I am having trouble determining if you're talking about the CV that you're seeing on your units or the opponents units? Are you playing with FOW? FOW has been made foggier then it was back in WITE1 as well. I've found WITE2 that the Germans tend to do better than they did in WITE1 on T1. But one big change is that the attacker loses combat effectiveness after multiple attacks in a single turn. That's a big change from WITE1 and something that personally took me awhile to get used to with WITE2. Thanks for taking the time to post. <3

Nix77 -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/27/2021 10:14:20 PM)
quote: I've found WITE2 that the Germans tend to do better than they did in WITE1 on T1. Wite2 T1 is longer than in Wite1, it's a full week now. I think the German advance is calibrated to reflect that.

chuckfourth -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/28/2021 8:22:59 AM)
Hello bwheatley The point I am making is that the fact that you need the special first turn rule PROVES that the counter values are wrong because if they were right you would not need the special first turn rule. or The first turn surprise rule is necessary because without it the Germans cannot reach the historically achieved penetrations, It follows then that they cannot reach those objectives because the German and Russian counter values MUST be wrong. Now the first turn surprise rule is unrealistic. Zones of control, German movement abilities, Soviet Morale and Damage were the same on week one as on week two. The first turn should be played as it happened historically, ie without the Surprise rule and with the Russians attack and defence values about 1/3 less than they are at full strength. (apparently about a third of them got caught in their barracks). No other changes. If the first turn Surprise rule is dropped you would very likely find that now the Germans cannot reach their historical penetrations. And that would be because compared to the Russians the German counter values are too weak. There is a obviously a very large amount of guesswork is giving the German and Russian counters their attack, defence and movement values. The well documented opening week of Barbarossa is ideal scenario to correctly test what values the German and Russian counters should actually have. This is because when they are set right the Germans will achieve what they achieved historically in the game WITHOUT needing the surprise first turn rule. So whatever values of the Russian and German counters let the Germans achieve their historical penetrations must be the CORRECT counter values because the first turn surprise rule is a convenient fiction. So you can use the first turn to get the correct counter values, ie you can use the first turn to calibrate the counter values because the first week is so well documented. Every assault has an element of surprise not just the first attack of the operation. The first turn rule is necessary to cover up the incorrect values of the counters. Other east front games do not have such a rule. In the games defence random morale and experience goes some way to reflect those Soviet forces caught in the barracks. But it is simpler to just break the Russian front line divisions into 3 regiments and then remove one regiment per division before the game starts to represent those caught in their Barracks. This would also give something similar to the zone of control aspect of surprise rule that needs to be removed. To answer your questions I get about the historical results playing WITE 1. I am not complaining that I cant get where I need to go. I am saying that the first turn rule is hiding incorrect counter baseline values. Im talking about the relative difference between the German and Russian counters. So to compensate for removing the first turn surprise rule you could either increase the values of the German counters, decrease the values of the Russian counters, though removing a regiment from each division might be enough. Or change the values of both countries counters The first turn rule should be removed altogether and the counter values adjusted to compensate or it needs to stay in place for EVERY turn. This is because there was no difference in German capabilities between week 1 and week 2. First turn rule is a game artifact unsupported historically. I don't USE FOG as I am learning the game. So I'm not so interested in how well the Germans do in turn 1 other than that they should be able to do what was achieved historically WITHOUT the Surprise rule. This is important because if the Germans were that good on turn 1 they should be that good on turn 2. Because of the first turn surprise rule they perform historically on turn one but then are majorly devalued for ALL the subsequent turns. Is that any clearer?

Simulacra53 -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/28/2021 9:34:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckfourth Im sorry Fararer I dont understand your comment. Pervitin is a type of Methamphetamine. https://thesecuritydistillery.org/all-articles/pervitin-how-drugs-transformed-warfare-in-1939-45 ...of course the use of speed-like substances in warfare isn’t exactly limited to Germany and WW2, now is it. Also the usage in the Wehrmacht is somewhat overstated, but it is cool to pretend that the Nazis were constantly high on speed.

chuckfourth -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/28/2021 10:22:20 AM)
Thank you Simulcra53 The point I would make is that Pervertine is not restricted to week one during operation Barbarossa, if it was then that would be reason for the extra speed the Germans have on turn 1 compared to turn 2

SigUp -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/28/2021 10:51:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckfourth Is that any clearer? All I'm seeing is somebody who (not only here but also elsewhere) just runs into minutiae that are sometimes not even accurate that he complete misses the bigger picture. You assume because there is a need to first turn surprise rule that this means the base system of the game is completely wrong. Did you maybe consider that there is also the possibility that the system works for the rest of the game aside from the first turn and that by "fixing" the first turn according to your wishes you would break the game for the rest of the war unless you introduce multitudes of special rules here and there? This game has been through years of testing. So in my humble opinion you are acting quite haughty by claiming based on a few hours of game play at best that the system is wrong and you not only know it better but also know how to fix it without breaking anything else.

Searry -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/28/2021 11:42:30 AM)
I don't get it. I've read through the posts several times and all I see is the "historical" argument which never works for video games.

chuckfourth -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/28/2021 8:24:30 PM)
Hi SigUp and Searry This is not based on a few hours of game play. It is a "Logical" argument. Let me rephrase it this way SigUp If you remove the first turn rule then the Germans will not be able to reach there historical objectives, correct? yes. So because the first turn rule is a fiction then the counter values MUST be out of whack. The German forces should be able to duplicate their historical performance without it. That they have to rely on the first turn rule for the game to work tells you the counters have the wrong values. It is not possible for the first turn rule to exist and the counter values to be correct at the same time. Searry the game has to rely on a historical argument. Who would play it if the Germans consistently achieved half or twice there there first turn penetrations? no one. Because they cant get the counter values right is why they had to make up the first turn rule. Its a "cover up" to adjust for wrong counter values. The first turn rule is a quick fix to do exactly that, give a historical result its a quick fix because it isn't based on anything real. If they remove it and then adjust the counter values accordingly then with the fundamental counter values right then that will inform the game about how the other various overarching rules need to be adjusted. It is a much better approach to design the ruleset upwards from the correct baseline counter values than to have the wrong counter values which is what we have now, and having to adjust all sorts of aspects of the game to get the right gameplay outcomes. And if you play the first turn without the first turn rule that can be used to tell you correctly what the counter values should be, you can use the first turn to calibrate the counters. I read the forums they are adjusting the game to get historical type outcomes doing this with the wrong basic counter values is chasing your tail. For example with the right counter values German supply nerfing might not be such a big issue.

Joel Billings -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/28/2021 10:06:27 PM)
I don't really understand. The first turn rules have to do with movement costs, not combat. The Germans can easily win the battles they need to on turn 1. However, the speed of movement and the inability of the Soviets to react quickly enough can be said to be unique to the opening of a war where one side is not used to fighting and not really prepared, and the other side has been able to study and plan for the opening moves for months without any change or interruption. Without the first turn rules the Germans would not be able to cover the ground that they did historically as the system assumes a certain amount of friction when moving into enemy areas that doesn't really apply in the first few days where the defense is surprised/confused/unprepared.

carlkay58 -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/28/2021 10:36:10 PM)
I have always considered that the Turn 1 Rules were there to represent the Soviets being caught flat-footed by the attack and the quick movement the German spearheads achieved rather than anything on the German side.

HMSWarspite -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/29/2021 7:35:27 AM)
So the game is flawed unless the combat effects can automatically take account of an army that was under orders to not provoke Hitler by doing anything to prepare? When else in the war were so many planes caught on the ground and so many troops not deployed when an offensive prepared in peacetime conditions kicked off? Sure, this is the ultimate in unpreparedness but is so far outside the rest of the war that you want the system to cope without aid? If I was designing say weather for a game where the history was affected by a once in 100 years level typhoon (say) would I design the weather system to have a chance of generating one randomly and the rules be able to cope automatically or would you special rule it? Because designing a system to cope out to a 1:100 year event means you have an awful lot of 1:50 or 1:10 year event effects you will likely never use! Wasted effort.

Hanny -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/29/2021 8:10:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckfourth Hi SigUp and Searry This is not based on a few hours of game play. It is a "Logical" argument. Let me rephrase it this way SigUp If you remove the first turn rule then the Germans will not be able to reach there historical objectives, correct? yes. So because the first turn rule is a fiction then the counter values MUST be out of whack. The German forces should be able to duplicate their historical performance without it. That they have to rely on the first turn rule for the game to work tells you the counters have the wrong values. It is not possible for the first turn rule to exist and the counter values to be correct at the same time. Searry the game has to rely on a historical argument. Who would play it if the Germans consistently achieved half or twice there there first turn penetrations? no one. Because they cant get the counter values right is why they had to make up the first turn rule. Its a "cover up" to adjust for wrong counter values. The first turn rule is a quick fix to do exactly that, give a historical result its a quick fix because it isn't based on anything real. If they remove it and then adjust the counter values accordingly then with the fundamental counter values right then that will inform the game about how the other various overarching rules need to be adjusted. It is a much better approach to design the ruleset upwards from the correct baseline counter values than to have the wrong counter values which is what we have now, and having to adjust all sorts of aspects of the game to get the right gameplay outcomes. And if you play the first turn without the first turn rule that can be used to tell you correctly what the counter values should be, you can use the first turn to calibrate the counters. I read the forums they are adjusting the game to get historical type outcomes doing this with the wrong basic counter values is chasing your tail. For example with the right counter values German supply nerfing might not be such a big issue. Units have mp allocation for t1, you can reach week one objectives with them, and without first turn rule in effect, so no it’s not a logical argument.

Joel Billings -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/29/2021 8:48:18 PM)
While you might reach some of the turn 1 hitorical gains without the turn 1 special rules, you'd be bery hard pressed to do it everywhere. Not having to pay zoc to zoc costs, nor some costs of moving through enemy territory, while not having some lower combat delays would make things much harder.

SigUp -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/29/2021 10:08:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckfourth Hi SigUp and Searry This is not based on a few hours of game play. It is a "Logical" argument. Let me rephrase it this way SigUp Your argument is only logical in the sense that you are committing logical fallacy. It's quite a stretch to say that designing a rule set to fit the week of 22nd June means you have automatically fixed the rule set for over 200 weeks. And what German supply nerfing are you talking about? Surely not your random claim with the city supply for which you have provided exactly 0 sources to back it up. If anything, German supply in 1941 might still be above what they were able to deliver to the front. Again, all I'm seeing here is somebody who is way over his head while not truly understanding either history or the game system itself (saying that the first turn ZOC rule is unrealistic and not based on history alone shows that you haven't really grasped what this is really attempting to simulate).

chuckfourth -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/30/2021 4:07:19 AM)
Hello Joel. Thanks for you explanation. Your post has helped me greatly in clarifying my thinking on the first turn rule. The premise I am operating from is that the German speed of movement on the first and second week are the same. So they do not deserve a first turn movement cost discount. If you represent the Russian weakness by decreasing Russian capabilities instead of increasing German movement capabilities there is then the added advantage that you can then "calibrate" the game using turn one. and it is more historically accurate. The Russians had two problems, They were not allowed to build much in they way of fortifications to avoid provoking Hitler and about one third of the troops were apparently caught in their barracks. So on the map I can see that many units have a fortification level of 2. This may well be wrong, it may be the case that the fortification level of most units at the front was 0. On day 1 each Russian division could be broken down into its 3 regiments and one Regiment removed from the board. ie transformed into 2 regiment divisions and placed on the board as two regiments. This would represent the soldiers caught in the barracks as not contributing to the defence. If I am right then the lack of fortifications and replacing each front line Division with 2 Regiments would have a very similar game effect as the Bonus German movement bonus but importantly the ability of the Germans to move through the front "easily" is achieved not by strengthening the Germans but by weakening the Russians. I think this configuration reflects the correct historical posture of the two sides better than the German movement bonus. It is important to weaken the Russians instead of strengthening the Germans because with this configuration you can now use the first turn to calibrate the game. This is because the Germans now have their correct historical movement capabilities and the Russians have there correct deployment. ie we no longer need the rule. If the Germans can't cover the ground or cover two much ground then that tells you something else needs to be adjusted because the first turn in now realistic. If it doesn't work I have suggested changing the combat values of the counters but you make a much better point about friction. If the Germans can't reach their historical achieved objectives then probably the friction experienced by the Germans needs to be decreased. Which would make sense as they were a better trained more organised army than the Russians. German reconnaissance was always excellent. You could even remove Friction completely for the Germans for the entire game. The Germans had however doubled the fuel carrying capacity of the Armoured and Motorised divisions for the start of the operation, giving them a range of about 500-600 miles on road -before- they needed refueling. Some detail I don't think the Soviets had an inherent inability to react quickly. Descriptions of the frontier attacks I have read seem to read like any regular battle. The Soviets in most cases fought well and bravely and most importantly, Normally. I think the campaign against Japan, Finnish war and invasion of Poland would qualify the Soviets as being used to fighting. They had command issues but that is already taken care of elsewhere in the game. Correct they were poorly prepared. not dug in properly and in their barracks. So it makes sense to me to have them actually not dug in and some "missing" rather than the German extra move bonus. Replacing a rule with an actual on board deployment. The German had planned well past the first week so whatever bonus they get on turn one for planning they should also get to turn 2 etc. My suspicion is that day one surprise was just as great at the start of any major offensive, Kursk, Sebastopol, 42 summer offensive for example. The Russians were aware of the June 41 buildup and had the Lucy Spy ring. I think it can be said that there were many instances when both Germans and Russians were surprised/confused/unprepared other than June 41. I also think Attrition, which I think at the moment is 1:1, should be 1:2 or better to reflect the professional advantage the German army had throughout the war. Number Predictions @ war by Dupuy, contains casualty lists throughout and in appendix B, It can be seen there that the Germans compared to the Allies almost invariably suffered much fewer casualties per day in all postures, attacking or defending. This held true even when the Germans were outnumbered 3,4 or 5 to one. I also asked Loki two questions about supply which remain unanswered. If a Division is at say half strength does its supply requirement halve? If a unit fights does it use up more supplies or more importantly if a unit travels forwards without fighting does it use less supplies than if it had to fight forward? I ask this because if you are just moving forward your supply requirements drop by about one third, by weight. If the German chooses to do something different with his supply he seems to be penalized with increased truck attrition. Wouldn't every single truck have been in use constantly already? so the attrition rate would stay the same? in that vain look here https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=214721&start=15 The last post (21) to see German truck production, the lift capacity of the Army seems to have increased during operation Barbarossa not decreased. Also post 3 and 20 have interesting numbers I have also been suggesting that captured cities like Kiev should probably be considered as automatic supply depots to reflect the Germans living of the land. As an example Van Crevald Supplying war contains this quote "Fuel consumption by both armored groups was very high, but could be met because that of ammunition was correspondingly low, and because Panzergruppe 2 made a timely discovery of a large Russian reservoir near Baranovichi." this is in June 41. The consensus is that the grosstransportraum function was to extend the railhead by about 300 klms I am hoping this has been taken into account. and I quote I like. An article from Gen. Lt. a.D, Max Bork a Branch Chief in the Transportation Division of the German Army General Staff. i.e. he is a primary source. https://www.allworldwars.com/Comments-on-Russian-Roads-and-Higways-by-Max-Bork.html This is his summary of the ability of the road network to support army group north. "As a result of this planning and the measures taken the Germans succeeded in maintaining that part of the road net which was vital for their operations and in improving it sufficiently to meet all demands." I don't know if you are aware of this but in case you are interested, from the same reference Dates the first German trains arrived in these cities. ie this is how far the rails had been repaired. " 27 June - Kaunas (military railroad station) 28 June - Bajohren 6 July - Dvinsk (west bank of the Dvina) 9 July - Riga 10 July - Rezekne (shuttle traffic from Dvinsk and Riga) 11 July - Ostrov 13 July - Cherskaya (between Ostrov and Pskov) 17 July - Sebezh 24 July - Pskov" Heres the bridge repair dates. "Location of railroad bridges Date restored (fully) Kaunas 17 July 1941 Taurage 29 June 1941 Riga 12 July 1941 Jelgava 22 July 1941 near Jekabpils 23 July 1941 near Rezekne 15 July 1941 near Cesis 24 July 1941 neer Pskov 27 July 1941 near Petseri 24 July 1941" (Games Pechory) and also on rail repair rate see the 9th post here "https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=51767 Also attachment of Support units in not really random they are either available or they aren't. The increase variability this randomness brings to battle outcomes disadvantages the German player as he is trying to hoard his quality units. I don't know if you have consulted German combat series The Soviet partisan movement 1941-44 but they are described as being much less effective in this reference than they are in the game. For example little or no partisan activity in the first 6 months. Largely absent in The Ukraine because they had no forests to work from and hide in. Largely absent in the Baltic (Riga partisan free) as the population is not Russian. I would suggest that regular infantry divisions also have an anti-partisan function, they perform the job much better than security divisions. And just a suggestion I think a lot of players would really like to be able to place the counters where they want for the opening turn of the game rather than being confined to the Historical layout. There are other issues I have concerns with, but that is probably the main points I would like to make for now. Thank you for your time. I am keenly awaiting the release of WITE 2, good luck.

loki100 -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/30/2021 7:16:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: chuckfourth .... I am keenly awaiting the release of WITE 2, good luck. it has been released [:)]

chuckfourth -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/31/2021 12:22:41 AM)
Hi Loki, yes the smiley face is very endearing but I see you continue to avoid answering these questions If a Division is at say half strength does its supply requirement halve? If a unit fights does it use up more supplies or more importantly if a unit travels forwards without fighting does it use less supplies than if it had to fight forward? I ask this because if you are just moving forward your supply requirements drop by about one third, by weight. I can only assume that you won't answer them because the answer tells us that yes the German supply in WITE 2 remains nerfed, am I right?

M60A3TTS -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/31/2021 1:11:19 AM)
If this helps you, here are two Soviet 41b Rifle Divisions, with the one on the left being around 50% TOE and the other 100%. As you see, the unit at 100% needs about twice the stuff as the one at 50% [image]https://i.imgur.com/9mLNDpX.jpg[/image]

carlkay58 -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/31/2021 2:33:22 AM)
chuckfourth: In reply to your second question a unit uses less supplies moving than fighting. Unless it is motorized and then it all depends on how much fuel you expend but even then it probably uses less freight than fighting. Ammo is heavy. In reply to your last question I personally feel that the Axis supply situation is too easy. Especially if you put in Super Depots. Look at my current AAR - I have posted through turn 7 (August 3, 1941). Historically at this time the front line units of 2nd and 3rd PG are suffering from a lack of fuel and ammo. Units are having to fight in place because of lack of fuel and artillery batteries had enough ammo for about 15 minutes of action. In my game, the PGs are receiving more supplies than they need. It is not uncommon for the units to have 40+ MPs each turn. Now granted I probably did a much better job securing the supply lines than the 2nd PG did historically (they did about zilch in that department in game terms) but I still think it is easier than it probably should be.

chuckfourth -> RE: How to calibrate the counter values correctly (3/31/2021 3:40:35 AM)
OK I see, thank you both for that information.

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