Submarines, that is the problem (Full Version)

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bladesinger79 -> Submarines, that is the problem (3/22/2021 11:46:57 PM)

So, hunting and killing enemy subs when using USA platforms is quite easy. Using them is another matter.

In a standalone mission called "Duelists", my three subs of Norwegian and British make, did nothing more than attract enemy torpedoes. No matter how slow I moved, how deep or inside the Zone I traveled, made absolute certain my sonars were not active, I couldn't get close enough to enemy surface ships without dying. I ran through the tutorials twice over, earned high scores on all of them; still can't operate subs effectively in a real scenario.

So, is there a trick that I'm unaware of? Or are subs basically luck? I'm no naval commander, more into land warfare (Steel Beasts Pro PE, Arma3). Not using that as an excuse (actually I am), but I'm fed up with my expensive Improved LA-class subs littering the ocean floors with their hulks.



cmanouser1 -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/23/2021 12:01:47 AM)

Read this:
https://harpgamer.com/harpforum/topic/3461-tactics-101-anti-submarine-warfare-asw-part-1/
https://harpgamer.com/harpforum/topic/3527-tactics-101-anti-submarine-warfare-asw-part-2/
https://harpgamer.com/harpforum/topic/3605-tactics-101-anti-submarine-warfare-part-3/

Also read the submarine chapters of the manual.



FMBluecher -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/23/2021 3:12:39 PM)

More information is always helpful, especially if you can add a save file to let us see what you tried. What exactly were your tactics?



BrianinMinnie -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/23/2021 3:28:05 PM)

quote:

Read this:
https://harpgamer.com/harpforum/topic/3461-tactics-101-anti-submarine-warfare-asw-part-1/
https://harpgamer.com/harpforum/topic/3527-tactics-101-anti-submarine-warfare-asw-part-2/
https://harpgamer.com/harpforum/topic/3605-tactics-101-anti-submarine-warfare-part-3/

Also read the submarine chapters of the manual.


I would contend that one could read that and while it makes sense in the real world or maybe playing Cold Waters, it means very little in our game. Surface and Helo ASW sensors are modeled just that good in CMO.

I'd wager the only chance you have is to get in front, stop, hide in layer, wait until their close enough to not out run whatever torpedo your sub has, move to whichever side of the layer gives you the best solution, fire, evade (back inside the layer?) by keeping your profile slimmest to the biggest asw threat, slink away if you don't die.

I don't believe you can evade helos, and rarely will any of your countermeasures save you, so I believe the best option is kill a many as you can to offset your own death.

There's many convo's on this forum about sub combat, maybe others have had better luck, but against most modern navy's shoot & die is my experience!



SSN754planker -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/23/2021 5:11:26 PM)

Minnie gets it.

Its not about barreling in with guns a blazing...

Its about being where they aint. Then finding the hole..and striking then.

Also....

Good things are coming soon to CMO...



guanotwozero -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/23/2021 10:31:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SSN754planker
Good things are coming soon to CMO...

My Emcon is now set to all active...



bladesinger79 -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/27/2021 12:34:30 AM)

I think part of my problem is that I would creep in close to the enemy so that when I fire torps, they can't run away fast enough before getting struck.

EXAMPLE: torps range of 4km, I tried to close in within 3km. Right before I opened fire, enemy torps were on my way. BOOM! Sunk.

Another problem I may have done wrong is that getting close, I ran very deep. Not realizing that sound is amplified more at deeper levels. I should have either stayed inside the zone or just below it.

In my current scenario (Northern Fury #5), I have an Improved LA class instead of Norwegian diesels as found in NF #1. I'll give it a run and report on it in an AAR later.



guanotwozero -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/28/2021 4:54:27 PM)

For wired torpedoes there's a useful tactic of them following a dog-leg course, so that by the time they're detected it gives a false impression of where the launcher is. You'd need to be pretty sure of the detection distance for it to work, and if there are helos about it's still risky.



StellarRat -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/28/2021 6:59:37 PM)

One thing that could help is to fire torpedoes at the ASW ships as well as the "real" targets as the same time. Even bearing only launches with active sonar warheads are good enough and you might even hit something. Forcing the ASW assets to dodge your torpedoes while you are busy running away will make it harder for them to hunt you down immediately. Since you are likely only going to get one try wasting torpedoes isn't too much of a consideration. Aircraft you can't do much about.



thewood1 -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/28/2021 7:34:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StellarRat

One thing that could help is to fire torpedoes at the ASW ships as well as the "real" targets as the same time. Even bearing only launches with active sonar warheads are good enough and you might even hit something. Forcing the ASW assets to dodge your torpedoes while you are busy running away will make it harder for them to hunt you down immediately. Since you are likely only going to get one try wasting torpedoes isn't too much of a consideration. Aircraft you can't do much about.


That's a great suggestion. Just firing torpedoes at multiple targets will get the escorts spinning around. Adding a dog leg or two will really mess them up.

And that got me wondering if there is a way for a sub to drop a torpedo and have it wait for a preset time to activate? I mean in real life.



stww2 -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/28/2021 8:06:40 PM)

Wire-guided torpedoes have that capability I think



goldfinger35 -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/29/2021 8:05:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1


And that got me wondering if there is a way for a sub to drop a torpedo and have it wait for a preset time to activate? I mean in real life.


You mean like Poseidon nuclear propulsion/nuclear warhead autonomous torpedo?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtE7ciLS-24



BeirutDude -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/29/2021 2:10:31 PM)

quote:

And that got me wondering if there is a way for a sub to drop a torpedo and have it wait for a preset time to activate? I mean in real life.


CAPTOR "Mine?" Just a torpedo waiting for the right signature to attack. Not sub based, but if we can do it from a aircraft...



gsalvar -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/29/2021 8:35:33 PM)

In this game submarines are not very useful.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4905654



cmanouser1 -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/29/2021 9:56:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gsalvar

In this game submarines are not very useful.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4905654


That's a bold statement. Depends on the scenario, and how well you use your subs.

For example, in Spratly Spat, a LIVE scenario set in the 2010s, the submarine is the only reasonable way to sink the Chinese carrier. Managed it on my first playthrough, subs aren't that useless!



guanotwozero -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/29/2021 10:39:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: gsalvar
In this game submarines are not very useful.

I'll disagree, but it depends what you want use them for vs your expectations.

I find I mostly use them for sensing, including ELINT whenever I'm prepared to risk going shallow. This can provide invaluable info in areas that are too far or too dangerous for aerial reconnaissance, e.g. advance warning of incoming strikes. If your sub is outside their helo range it's often worth risking detection as long as there's a good opportunity to skedaddle to the layer and relocate.

Combat is more opportunistic as it can be hard to plan an attack without taking significant risks. As @SSN754planker mentioned above 'finding a hole' in their defences is the best approach, but often that's not possible. I've spent long games waiting for opportunities that never happened.



stww2 -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (3/29/2021 11:09:55 PM)

Agreed...my submarines in my Northern Fury playthroughs have racked up quite the kill list, for instance. In Hold the Line for example I was able to get subs to torpedo both the Soviet carriers (granted the subs died due to return fire, but that was due to stupid decisions on my part, not because subs are broken).

Granted, trying to sneak up on a slow-moving escort formation with MPA/helicopter support and towed-array escorts in ideal ASW sea conditions is probably going to be rather difficult, but I wouldn't call that a flaw with the game...

This is not to say that there aren't things that could be improved (the infiniteness of sonar buoys, for instance, probably makes it a bit easier than it should be for MPAs to search a large area), but submarines as currently implemented are certainly not useless and certainly not broken. At least from a gameplay standpoint. Whether they are realistic or not is not something I'm qualified to evaluate.



BeirutDude -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (4/5/2021 12:11:13 AM)

Calling all Submarine commanders...

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4996091&mpage=1&key=�



KungPao -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (4/5/2021 6:02:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bladesinger79

Another problem I may have done wrong is that getting close, I ran very deep. Not realizing that sound is amplified more at deeper levels. I should have either stayed inside the zone or just below it.



it depends, to TA it may be a better idea to hide in Layer, but to hull sonar and VDS at passive mode , dive as deep as possible provide a better protection. I did a test out of curiosity. South China sea, A deep and thick layer at -420ft to -700ft.

First batch of test is a Burke IIA with a TA heading south at 5kt, passive mode. A Victor III at 5kt heading towards Burke IIA.
When depth at: Detection range is
Shallow : 13nm
just above layer: 8.3nm
in layer: 6.9nm
Just under layer: 19nm
as deep as possible: 15nm

Second is a Udaloy I with VDS, 5kts, passive mode. same victor III at :

Shallow : 13nm
just above layer: 8nm
in layer: 6nm
Just under layer: 3.66nm
as deep as possible 3.46nm

of course when you are facing SAG, the situation will be much more complicate. The sonobuoy under and above the layer should be the biggest concern.





BeirutDude -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (4/6/2021 12:16:34 AM)

But can you get it past a P-8A? That is the question!!!!



guanotwozero -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (4/6/2021 1:15:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

But can you get it past a P-8A? That is the question!!!!

Hehe! I'm currently failing to find a Chinese sub with a P-8A in your "Fiery Cross Reef"; I know it's there as I detected it killing a whale! It's likely just a matter of time though, with enough sonobuoy saturation.



maverick3320 -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (4/6/2021 11:45:26 AM)

Heh, trying using cold war era soviet equipment to detect NATO diesel subs. Basically impossible. In my current scenario (the first of the Mediterranean Fury series) I have multiple Hormones, Mails, and surface ships with active sonars blasting away, and I can at best get an intermittent contact of a Type 209 at a depth of 131 feet. All four torpedoes fired have not been able to find it, either.



BeirutDude -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (4/6/2021 10:08:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

But can you get it past a P-8A? That is the question!!!!

Hehe! I'm currently failing to find a Chinese sub with a P-8A in your "Fiery Cross Reef"; I know it's there as I detected it killing a whale! It's likely just a matter of time though, with enough sonobuoy saturation.


The the PLAN Type 039B SSN must be a railroad locomotive then I've caught 11 times trying to get into Sagami Bay! [:D] [8D] [8|]



Gunner98 -> RE: Submarines, that is the problem (4/6/2021 11:30:07 PM)

quote:

Type 209 at a depth


[8D] Ahh but you have so much stuff available to look for it.



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