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bairdlander2 -> Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 6:00:05 PM)

I used the AI pre set missions as Axis.Changed ground attack to all 7 days and intensity to high as well as set target to units.Results of air losses.

[image]local://upfiles/31566/D24BC694EE7C4E23AAA1583FF80FC5CB.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 6:13:34 PM)

Couple of things to bear in mind when planning T1.

In the main avoid all week/hugh intensity, that has caused that large cluster of operational losses and I'd guess you ended up with under-escorted bombers later in the week when the VVS has woken up.

Second, its far easier to destroy planes on the ground than in #1, so plan your ground moves with a half an eye on large airbases where you suspect there must be a lot of damaged planes. that can add 1000 or so to your air phase cull.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 6:25:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander2

I used the AI pre set missions as Axis.Changed ground attack to all 7 days and intensity to high as well as set target to units.Results of air losses.

[image]local://upfiles/31566/D24BC694EE7C4E23AAA1583FF80FC5CB.jpg[/image]


WOAH!

You won't have any German Airplanes left at that rate. I personally don't use the AI pre-set at all. Of course I don't mind micro-managing everything in the game and as such you can see in my snapshot below the differences. There is a learning curve but well worth it if you don't mind managing your Air Force.


This is what I get for Turn 1 and only fly "only" the 1st day bombing missions for comparison. (this is from the last Beta AAR game I did) You really can't fly the airforce into the ground (nor the ground troops either or you are going to pay a price)







[image]local://upfiles/53556/0B4AAA9D62D34EE4A25CCF73902F8978.jpg[/image]



Erik Rutins -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 6:54:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
Second, its far easier to destroy planes on the ground than in #1, so plan your ground moves with a half an eye on large airbases where you suspect there must be a lot of damaged planes. that can add 1000 or so to your air phase cull.


It's worth noting that beyond the Air Phase, in addition to capturing airfields, the early ground support missions when you clear away some of the border defenses can also pull in a fair few Soviet fighters and bombers, which generally don't do well in those engagements on Turn 1. You just want to make sure those happen within your fighter range.



zakblood -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 7:10:11 PM)

the more you take out on the ground, the less you have to deal with on later turns in the air, so plan, then plan again,

then go back to the manual and read,

then read again, then play and plan again.

after a few losses,

some hair loss,... some games ended early, some tantrums and shouts at the pc,....

and some more time learning the game you think you know, you soon learn Air takes out ground targets, then tanks & Mech units roll over airfields,

which in turn leaves little left,.... apart from what's not in range, or brought in from elsewhere etc etc...

but after saying all that, Russia is vast, and not only is the land never ending, Mother Russia learns



Speedysteve -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 7:12:23 PM)

I haven’t run it yet but with D1 being the day when the VVS are all on the ground drinking vodka and smoking I’ll maximise airfield attacks then and my current logic says stagger a mixture of CS and Interdiction missions through the rest of the week at medium intensity. I’ll play around with that when I start my first campaign later after my curry and beers🤪



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 7:28:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

I haven’t run it yet but with D1 being the day when the VVS are all on the ground drinking vodka and smoking I’ll maximise airfield attacks then and my current logic says stagger a mixture of CS and Interdiction missions through the rest of the week at medium intensity. I’ll play around with that when I start my first campaign later after my curry and beers🤪


;-) That's the way to do it. Can't go wrong with Curry & BeerS.



dudefan -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 7:34:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander2

I used the AI pre set missions as Axis.Changed ground attack to all 7 days and intensity to high as well as set target to units.Results of air losses.

[image]local://upfiles/31566/D24BC694EE7C4E23AAA1583FF80FC5CB.jpg[/image]


WOAH!

You won't have any German Airplanes left at that rate. I personally don't use the AI pre-set at all. Of course I don't mind micro-managing everything in the game and as such you can see in my snapshot below the differences. There is a learning curve but well worth it if you don't mind managing your Air Force.


This is what I get for Turn 1 and only fly "only" the 1st day bombing missions for comparison. (this is from the last Beta AAR game I did) You really can't fly the airforce into the ground (nor the ground troops either or you are going to pay a price)







[image]local://upfiles/53556/0B4AAA9D62D34EE4A25CCF73902F8978.jpg[/image]



Whoa. Can you send a screenshot of your directives?what altitude do you use?



Searry -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 7:49:27 PM)

Last time I reached 4200 planes destroyed on the ground after the ground movement was over. The new AOG assigning mechanic is useful in this as your fighters can run many many missions, of course this will cause ops losses of around the same amount as in that image. 3700 is a good target for the air phase.
You want to have all the bases with fighters on very high priority and first on the list and then work down to bomber bases but if you stray too far enemy fighters in their rear will absolutely maul your unescorted bombers.
An altitude of 7k feet is good as it's below the most effective part of low AA.

Even if you feel very tempted, don't use fuel tanks on your F-2s, the ops losses will rack up suddenly and massively.



dudefan -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 7:54:42 PM)

Air superiority missions as well?

Even though i only do Medium intensity day1 bombing I lose at least 500 and destroy around 2500-3000



Searry -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 8:07:47 PM)

Do you bomb most of the airfields only once? Do you have 1 mission per airfield except in the bialystok area and in areas where there's a good opportunity to easily bomb 2 airfields next to each other if they both have either bombers only or fighters only? No air superiority missions. Also, switch your bombers to have the biggest number of 50kg bombs.



dudefan -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 8:13:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry

Do you bomb most of the airfields only once? Do you have 1 mission per airfield except in the bialystok area and in areas where there's a good opportunity to easily bomb 2 airfields next to each other if they both have either bombers only or fighters only? No air superiority missions. Also, switch your bombers to have the biggest number of 50kg bombs.



I have bombin missions on auto (around 76 for day 1). Should I manually set it to 1?

I have several 10 hex wide bombing missions. I will do it airbase specific as you suggested.


Bonus question: is there an easy way to reorganize the order of missions or do I have to redo every mission if I want for example a specific recon mission before every other mission



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 8:20:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Air superiority missions as well?

Even though i only do Medium intensity day1 bombing I lose at least 500 and destroy around 2500-3000


1. The order in which you bomb Soviet air bases matter.

2. Altitude matters.

3. Bomb load out matters (I know many in BETA said it does not but it does, this goes hand-in-hand with altitude)

4. I don't fly Air Superiority missions 1st turn.

5. Anything bombing past 8 - 10 hexes requires an escort of fighter(s). Otherwise you are going to get mauled if intercepted flying un-escorted on the first turn. I do use drop tanks but only when needed.

6. I don't do wide hex bombing.




Searry -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 8:22:58 PM)

For large bombing areas the auto setting is good enough(but I wouldn't suggest doing that ever) but on turn 1 you should mostly focus on 1 mission per airfield with 1 bombing run.

There's no way to reorder the missions. Recon missions aren't really needed on turn 1. Also, set your bomber airbase bombing missions to medium priority. Very high and high priority for fighter bases working from closest to farthest.



dudefan -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 8:25:53 PM)

Thank you guys for the help.

The only thing I don't understand is how and where I set the fighter priority? Priority of the airbase? Or of the luftflotte?

Edit: ah I think i understand. You mean priority targets



Hanny -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/25/2021 9:12:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander2

I used the AI pre set missions as Axis.Changed ground attack to all 7 days and intensity to high as well as set target to units.Results of air losses.

[image]local://upfiles/31566/D24BC694EE7C4E23AAA1583FF80FC5CB.jpg[/image]


FYI, in case you want to compare, using the wartime records of airframes written off, Eastern Front German losses LW to all causes was
June 407
July 715
August 367
Sept 330
Oct 331
Nov 193
Dec 168

Su losses for first 6 days was over twice what you achieved, with a quarter of all of them being in air to air, with 321 lost in air to air on day one.



Rusty1961 -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/26/2021 12:14:54 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

the more you take out on the ground, the less you have to deal with on later turns in the air, so plan, then plan again,

then go back to the manual and read,

then read again, then play and plan again.

after a few losses,

some hair loss,... some games ended early, some tantrums and shouts at the pc,....

and some more time learning the game you think you know, you soon learn Air takes out ground targets, then tanks & Mech units roll over airfields,

which in turn leaves little left,.... apart from what's not in range, or brought in from elsewhere etc etc...

but after saying all that, Russia is vast, and not only is the land never ending, Mother Russia learns



Sounds confusing. Play, read, play, read...something isn't right.



Rusty1961 -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/26/2021 12:15:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry

Last time I reached 4200 planes destroyed on the ground after the ground movement was over. The new AOG assigning mechanic is useful in this as your fighters can run many many missions, of course this will cause ops losses of around the same amount as in that image. 3700 is a good target for the air phase.
You want to have all the bases with fighters on very high priority and first on the list and then work down to bomber bases but if you stray too far enemy fighters in their rear will absolutely maul your unescorted bombers.
An altitude of 7k feet is good as it's below the most effective part of low AA.

Even if you feel very tempted, don't use fuel tanks on your F-2s, the ops losses will rack up suddenly and massively.



3700? What was it in reality?



carlkay58 -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/26/2021 12:25:51 AM)

Some important things to know about turn 1 air directives in WitE2:

1. The Soviet VVS is much more active on turn 1 than it was in WitE.
2. Any unescorted bombers are going to be creamed.
3. But the Air Directives are executed in the order in which you define them.
4. You will find that a single bombing mission with a single bombing squadron will usually destroy all of the Soviet aircraft on an airbase.
5. Take your time to define everything on turn 1 - it is time well spent and will pay off huge dividends in the long run.
6. Practice you turn 1 vs the AI with FOW off and keep playing with the Air Directives until you figure out what works best for you.
7. Only bomb on D1.
8. Many people do not fly RECON directives on turn 1. I do - but only on D7. Also change the altitude of the RECON Air Doctrine to over 16000 ft, fly them unescorted, and at 25% mission pct. This keeps the Recon planes high (which most of them have medium or high altitude cameras anyways), the number of aircraft flying low making them hard to detect and intercept, and minimizes the distance traveled by the RECON squadrons so Operational Losses are lower. All of the previous are my personal opinion and not necessarily what you may find works best for you.




Hanny -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/26/2021 4:45:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: Searry

Last time I reached 4200 planes destroyed on the ground after the ground movement was over. The new AOG assigning mechanic is useful in this as your fighters can run many many missions, of course this will cause ops losses of around the same amount as in that image. 3700 is a good target for the air phase.
You want to have all the bases with fighters on very high priority and first on the list and then work down to bomber bases but if you stray too far enemy fighters in their rear will absolutely maul your unescorted bombers.
An altitude of 7k feet is good as it's below the most effective part of low AA.

Even if you feel very tempted, don't use fuel tanks on your F-2s, the ops losses will rack up suddenly and massively.



3700? What was it in reality?

by the 28 total SU losses was 4007, of which in the air by day were
322
123
149
155
210
65



Hanny -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/26/2021 9:08:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: bairdlander2

I used the AI pre set missions as Axis.Changed ground attack to all 7 days and intensity to high as well as set target to units.Results of air losses.

[image]local://upfiles/31566/D24BC694EE7C4E23AAA1583FF80FC5CB.jpg[/image]


WOAH!

You won't have any German Airplanes left at that rate. I personally don't use the AI pre-set at all. Of course I don't mind micro-managing everything in the game and as such you can see in my snapshot below the differences. There is a learning curve but well worth it if you don't mind managing your Air Force.


This is what I get for Turn 1 and only fly "only" the 1st day bombing missions for comparison. (this is from the last Beta AAR game I did) You really can't fly the airforce into the ground (nor the ground troops either or you are going to pay a price)







[image]local://upfiles/53556/0B4AAA9D62D34EE4A25CCF73902F8978.jpg[/image]



Whoa. Can you send a screenshot of your directives?what altitude do you use?

Historic first sortie losses for comparison, on 31 airfields, note the majority of Ju88 and He 111 were from SD2 oridinance exploding inside the aircraft when deployed, removed after first sortie as unsafe for use.
Me 109 2
Me 110 1
JU87 1
He 111 6
Ju 88 8



loki100 -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/26/2021 9:15:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

...
3. But the Air Directives are executed in the order in which you define them.
...




with the very important proviso, that this is weighted by priority. So the missions execute in priority order first and then in the order you created them:


[image]local://upfiles/43256/3A4DB84518234F07AC3B2FF511EA376E.jpg[/image]



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/26/2021 2:43:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

...
3. But the Air Directives are executed in the order in which you define them.
...




with the very important proviso, that this is weighted by priority. So the missions execute in priority order first and then in the order you created them:


[image]local://upfiles/43256/3A4DB84518234F07AC3B2FF511EA376E.jpg[/image]


What Loki said.



Bamilus -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/27/2021 1:49:07 AM)

Thanks for tips, guys. Using single hex ground attacks, prioritizing fighter bombs first, and not going past escort range, first turn I was able to get 2200 soviet air losses vs 100 axis. I know it's not great but way better than the 400-500 axis losses vs 2000-2500 soviet losses the default AI settings give you.



HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/27/2021 3:29:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Thanks for tips, guys. Using single hex ground attacks, prioritizing fighter bombs first, and not going past escort range, first turn I was able to get 2200 soviet air losses vs 100 axis. I know it's not great but way better than the 400-500 axis losses vs 2000-2500 soviet losses the default AI settings give you.


That is an excellent upgrade!!!! Little more practice and you will be just fine.

By the way my loses are high because I fly at 6,000 feet for bombing on the first turn ;-) I ran a few test and showed me that I got better results at that level. But I don't know anymore since I take a ton of Flak loses & that was many patches ago when I ran those test bombings. I am sure it has changed and I need to put in some more time for testing more things.

You just can't force things in the air. Will take a finesse as a German to make things work.



CapAndGown -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/28/2021 3:46:07 AM)

quote "1 bombing mission per airfield"

Since you only get 10 air directives that would seem to mean only 30 airfields bombed (10 per Luftflotte) with no ground support or recon. I am not understanding. Is this what is intended?

Could someone walk be through step-by-step of how to set up air doctrines on the first turn? From just running the AI assist missions in my few test runs it seems clear that AI assist is totally inadequate.



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/28/2021 4:14:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

quote "1 bombing mission per airfield"

Since you only get 10 air directives that would seem to mean only 30 airfields bombed (10 per Luftflotte) with no ground support or recon. I am not understanding. Is this what is intended?

Could someone walk be through step-by-step of how to set up air doctrines on the first turn? From just running the AI assist missions in my few test runs it seems clear that AI assist is totally inadequate.


HLYA will correct me if I'm wrong but there are enough airfields close to each other that you can set up ground attack directives with 1/2 radius and hit them both with a single directive.




king171717 -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/28/2021 5:49:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain


quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Air superiority missions as well?

Even though i only do Medium intensity day1 bombing I lose at least 500 and destroy around 2500-3000


1. The order in which you bomb Soviet air bases matter.

2. Altitude matters.

3. Bomb load out matters (I know many in BETA said it does not but it does, this goes hand-in-hand with altitude)

4. I don't fly Air Superiority missions 1st turn.

5. Anything bombing past 8 - 10 hexes requires an escort of fighter(s). Otherwise you are going to get mauled if intercepted flying un-escorted on the first turn. I do use drop tanks but only when needed.

6. I don't do wide hex bombing.




thank you for this! this is definitely helping me.



TheFerret -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/28/2021 7:30:56 AM)

It almost seems like, counterintuitively, you don't want to do too well with your D1 ground attacks, because when you get to the ground phase what's left of the VVS will happily fly to you. (Did this happen historically?)

Here's my best air execution phase result after fine-tuning my air directives. I went for maximum destruction on the ground, using 1 AD per airfield (except for a couple targeting 2 or 3 airfields in LF 4 because I hit the AD limit). I found that with my settings 1 mission aircraft destroyed about 1 to 1.25 Soviet aircraft on the ground, so I assigned mission aircraft roughly equal to the number of planes at the target field, a little more for the key fighter bases and a little less for some bomber/auxiliary bases. I assigned all the Ju-87s and bomber-trained Bf-110s to hit specific fighter bases near the border in the first wave, to keep them out of air combat and prevent the air staff from doing silly things like sending them to targets at the edge of their range where I'd rather have level bombers hit.

I found that fighter escorts weren't necessary if I was disciplined about hitting every fighter base first. Strikes at the edge of bomber range in the north and center were untouched. In the south there's more fighters in inconvenient locations close enough to intercept but too far to realistically eliminate, but they only intercept if you try reaching out really far to i.e. Crimea or the airfields around Kyiv - but hitting targets that far out pretty drastically increases your ops losses too, so I don't think they're worth it anyways.



TheFerret -> RE: Not bad turn 1 air (3/28/2021 7:36:18 AM)

To the original point, here's the end-of-turn losses. Despite destroying over 300 more airframes than HardLuckYetAgain's example, I eliminated over 150 fewer pilots - and I gather from loki's AAR that losing pilots hurts a lot more than losing airframes. And my ops losses were over twice as high as HardLuck's - all of the extra were level bombers, which I assume means I flew my bombers harder in the air execution phase.

(sorry they're just attachments - I think I have another week until I'm able to actually link pictures inline, haha)



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