Cannot conquer the Papacy (Full Version)

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ThomasJay -> Cannot conquer the Papacy (3/26/2021 3:13:09 AM)

Sorry i'm sure this is a noob question, but I couldn't find the answer in the manual:

I'm playing as France in the 1805 campaign and wanted to finish taking over the Italian peninsula. The Papacy is a British ally and was showing as already at war with me, and was being attacked by Spain who I declared war on and kicked off the peninsula. Ive left troops on all three of the Papacy provinces and kept a corps sitting in Rome for months and nothing happens. Nothing in the messages other than the troops having foraged.

What am I missing?



Tylom -> RE: Cannot conquer the Papacy (3/26/2021 5:32:36 AM)


If you have a garrison in Rome that's not besieged and a corp in Papacy it should fall in the next year. If it hasn't there's a bug. You say it's listed as a Brit ally, but is it listed as at war with you? I wasn't sure of your wording there. If you didn't DoW on it then that may be the issue. If it's a Brit Conquered/Free State then it should have fallen. If it isn't one of those then you could pull your troops out, DoW, and then move in once it is owned by a Major. That's about all I can suggest at this point:)



pzgndr -> RE: Cannot conquer the Papacy (3/26/2021 12:34:57 PM)

I'll take a look. Something similar came up in a pbem game several weeks ago. I think there is some restriction on major powers initially controlling neutral minors upon DOW, for the purpose of being a placeholder controller of the minor? So while you may be at war with the MP and it also shows at war with the minor, you may not be actually at war with the minor. Upon lapse of war with the minor the MP should gain full control but until then it's confusing.



ThomasJay -> RE: Cannot conquer the Papacy (3/26/2021 1:29:25 PM)

Thanks for the reply. You actually brought up another issue I forgot to mention. I cannot garrison Rome either, each turn I've tried I get an error beep but no message. I've had no problem taking over free states and conquered nations. Do minor allies work differently? I hope you didnt mean I have to occupy it for a year!

To try to clarify more, after I conquered the Spanish territories in northern Italy. I was left with the Papacy and Naples, which are both shown as British Allies. I wanted to go for the Papacy first, which at the time was besieged by a Spanish corps(I was already at war with Spain). When I went to declare war on the Papacy I got the message we were already at war I eliminated the Spanish corps and there are no garrisons or troops but mine anywhere in Italy. And here I've had troops sit for months twice now. I think I might have seen a 'Papacy surrenders' message at one point early on, not entirely sure, but there's no change in ownership.

Interestingly, while the Papacy was already at war with me, Naples, also a British ally, is not. I suppose I could dow them to see if I get different results, but I'd rather not lose the political point if Im going to face the same issue.








ThomasJay -> RE: Cannot conquer the Papacy (3/26/2021 1:52:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

I'll take a look. Something similar came up in a pbem game several weeks ago. I think there is some restriction on major powers initially controlling neutral minors upon DOW, for the purpose of being a placeholder controller of the minor? So while you may be at war with the MP and it also shows at war with the minor, you may not be actually at war with the minor. Upon lapse of war with the minor the MP should gain full control but until then it's confusing.


Thank Bill
Yes that's just a little confusing :) But I'm kind of glad to know it's probably not just me making a silly mistake. Maybe since Naples does not currently show as at war with me like the Papacy did, I will dow them and see if there's a difference between the two. I'm not really playing for a win anyway though I've kept it close.



pzgndr -> RE: Cannot conquer the Papacy (3/26/2021 5:20:53 PM)

Alright, here is what I have found. There is the check_for_freestate_control function to assign temporary control of a DOW'd neutral minor to a Major Power. There is also the nation_check_for_lapses_of_war function to convert control to the Major Power, repatriate forces as applicable, etc., if there is a lapse of war. However, for lapses of war the nation_inherit_wars function is called and this is what formally sets the minor at war with anyone else at war with the controlling Major Power, and this is NOT called during the check_for_freestate_control function.

So bottom line is that a DOW against a minor is limited to the Major Power that declared war until the minor is conquered (in which case the conquering MP gains full control) OR until there is a lapse of war (in which case the 'controlling' MP gains full control and the minor inherits all wars). I'm assuming that you as France never actually declared war on neutral Papacy so all you could do was move into it as a neutral and not perform any war functions. That's probably the issue here; not a bug.

If anything, the box showing a neutral minor at war with you is probably a bug and I'll take a look at that. However, Spain had DOW'd Papacy and there was a lapse of war since you kicked Spain out, so Great Britain should have gained full control and Papacy should have inherited being at war with France. Did you wait a full turn to see a lapse of war or might that be the case?

Another thing I discovered the hard way is that you may be allied with a MP 'controlling' a minor, but you cannot enter the minor to fight a mutual enemy unless you have access. This happened while I was playing Austria allied with Turkey, France had DOW'd Bavaria, and I was all set to attack France in Bavaria but (surprise!) could not move in. So lesson learned in all this is that there is a big difference between a MP having 'acting control' of a minor and having 'full control' of a minor. Clear as mud? Hope this helps.




ThomasJay -> RE: Cannot conquer the Papacy (3/27/2021 10:19:12 PM)

Well I have definitely learned not to do that again :)
The last time I touched Papacy soil was January 1810 on my way back from Naples so I'm hoping their state of war with me will lapse mid-1811.




pzgndr -> RE: Cannot conquer the Papacy (3/28/2021 3:51:56 PM)

I assumed this was early in the 1805 game. If you're into 1810/1811, then changes of Papacy status might complicate the situation. Regardless, how the game handles minors at war should be the same.

In further investigations, I found other game functions that call the nation_inherit_wars function so there's more going on than I thought. I considered making some changes, but at this point that is problematic and would likely create new issues. Perhaps later I will reconsider how the At War messages are displayed.



ThomasJay -> RE: Cannot conquer the Papacy (3/29/2021 4:55:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

I assumed this was early in the 1805 game. If you're into 1810/1811, then changes of Papacy status might complicate the situation. Regardless, how the game handles minors at war should be the same.

In further investigations, I found other game functions that call the nation_inherit_wars function so there's more going on than I thought. I considered making some changes, but at this point that is problematic and would likely create new issues. Perhaps later I will reconsider how the At War messages are displayed.


No please don't consider making any changes based on this, especially with potential to break anything. I clearly made a noob mistake attacking when I did that caused something incredibly rare in the games calculations. I wish I had paid more attention or gone back a few phases, but being my first game, it took me a long time to realise something wasn't right and post about it here. The initial battle was sometime in 1806 or 1807, and I've just been going back in occasionally to see if anything changed.

Other than this quirk the game has been playing well and I'm enjoying myself learning it. The Ai isn't great but it's not horrible either. It's obviously improved since the Murat tutorial since the British gave me no chance to pull off his opening moves and has given me a few surprises, like when the Bavarians attacked an under garrisoned Venice.




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