Soviet players guide. (Full Version)

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tyronec -> Soviet players guide. (3/26/2021 10:40:20 AM)

Soviet players guide for the Campaign (primarily ’41).
This is a supplement to the Axis guide, so there are parts of that which also apply to the Soviets.

Axis win the game by pocketing a lot of units, Soviets win if they can preserve their army. If Axis can keep your OOB below 3M in ’41 then you are losing, if you can get it above 4M during the summer then you are winning. Yes, you want to hold Lenningrad, Moscow and as much else as possible but without the army you are kaput.

Land war.
The Soviet army is weak and can only gradually build up strength if well looked after. Expect to have a lot of units pocketed throughout ’41, and when they are pocketed don’t waste good troops in a lost cause to try and save them. What you want to avoid is big pockets and allowing Axis to break through the front and capture terrain at will. If you do ever break a pocket then pull all the SUs out.

For the first third of the summer you should be looking at keeping out of range of Axis infantry, so retreating 3-4 hexes a turn. Possibly defending urban, river lines and heavy terrain. No attacking.

For the second third you can begin to establish continuous front lines. Still expect to retreat anywhere where there is an exposed salient or sometimes a few hexes to keep away from the infantry. You need depth to slow down Axis, so aiming for 3 lines deep of units in the important areas (no stacking). Nothing is secure against a strong attack, so defending a river line you still need troops to cover a potential crossing and break out. Counter attack only to break pockets or against Romanians.

Final third of the summer you can begin to have a solid defence in some areas, like around Leningrad or in front of Moscow where there is good terrain. Maybe some stacked units. In the open the name of the game is still to retreat to avoid being pocketed. May consider doing a few counter attacks to build wins and experience but only if the odds are good and you can afford to have the attackers weaker next turn.

Strong points on a defensive line are no good, Axis can simply work around them and pocket with their Panzers. Always you need depth.
There may be a case for building a city fort at in important cities if it is going to inhibit Axis supply, for example in Smolensk where their FBD can be held back. Garrison with high CV infantry and maybe an HQ. Try to work the supply system so that it has a reserve of supply before it is cut off. Two divisions can usually be shifted with a heavy Axis frontal assault, more will take longer or they may need to pocket it first which could really slow up the Axis advance. Note that Urban gives better defensive factors then City.

Try to work out where the Axis FBDs are going and plan accordingly (can use Recon). Cutting their rail line is the most damaging thing you can do to Axis in ’41, if it is well behind the front the FBD may need to go back to repair it. Cavalry are great for this kind of raid and the threat will force Axis to keep the whole front covered with units.

Tank divisions are one hit weapons, they soon lose their CV after a combat. Possible uses are:
On reserve in the rear lines (but not too early in the game). Don’t move them around more than necessary or all the tanks will break down.
Keep them out of combat as a force in being for your 3rd line, making it harder for Axis to achieve a break out.
Occasionally you can gang up on an exposed Axis unit, but it will likely trash your CV for the next turn.
Deliberately hunting out Panzer divisions to kill Axis AFVs. This is borderline viable but it will hurt Axis to keep attacking Tank units with Panzer divisions.

Keep your units up to strength, you don’t want anything below 50% TOE in the front line. So keep recycling units that have been in combat back to REFIT (on a depot with an HQ). I don’t understand how the AI manages the units on REFIT but there is an optimal number of units/troops available each turn. Maybe 10-20 divisions is about right. On the other hand there are the benefits to units away from the front line to being on REFIT, so am not sure of the best way to play this. New units should be built up to strength before being used. You will have a glut of weak units early game so be prepared to merge them as required. Fight with the high CV units and give the others time to build up. Weak units take huge casualties in combat and may shatter.
Anything with Morale of 50 or less is at risk of a huge drop in combat value during a battle.

Fortifications.
Soviet units entrench slowly in ’41 so you cannot really afford to have units building entrenchments some distance behind the front line. However do consider that aside from swamps you build entrenchment just as quickly in close terrain as in the open. The one exception to this is level 1 Forts in Open terrain. Get familiar with what it takes to get up to level 1 before Axis arrive and make maximum use of this. Unlike WITE there is no Fort building penalty for units on RESERVE.

SUs.
Deploy all SUs back to STAVKA at the start of the game. Don’t use any combat ones for the first few turns as you are getting trashed in most combats. Then give each army 6 artillery/mortar/rocket SUs starting with your better leaders. Only deploy them from STAVKA once their TOE gets above 60% or so, otherwise they may get lost in combat. Note that some HQs start as shells and will be less effective until the fill out.
You can assign motorcycle/infantry/tank/AT/AA SUs to infantry divisions or to Corps once they are available, however consider that attaching a motorised SU to an infantry unit will mean it requires fuel and will use more trucks. Assigning an infantry SU to a motorised unit will use up trucks.
Each turn check the TOEs of your deployed SUs and send the weak ones back to STAVKA to refit, otherwise they can get lost in combat.
City AA are not much value, they do not fight in ground combat and may be destroyed if their city is taken. You could reduce their Max TOE so they absorb less guns, it is hardly worth the effort of transferring them anywhere. When you have surplus APs maybe the large ones could be converted to normal SUs but the small ones are barely worth bothering about.

Leaders.
Aim to promote about one leader a turn (not the first few turns). Leaders have a big impact on combat. There are not many leaders with good Mech values so there is a case for collecting Armour and Mech units under them. If an area goes static then move good leaders out to a more active front – this can be done manually be switching HQs around so you don’t waste APs.
Air leaders are less important as they don’t have a direct impact on combat value.

HQs.
On T6 the rifle corps begin to leave. Airborne and Cav corps stay around (some start leaving around the first Mud period), am inclined to use them for REFIT on depots and occasional random units. They also give you a little extra capacity if needed.
On the turns where the Infantry Corps are leaving try and get your units organised so that they will be within range of their next level up Army if the Corps disappears.
Keep STAVKA organised, all units assigned to an army and all armies to a front. You will need to a few of the M.D.s, they can take a couple of armies each and are good for quiet areas. Check on the Commanders report that no Fronts/Armies are over capacity.
Many early war HQs start with low TOEs, there is a significant malus on leadership rolls proportional to how low that TOE is. So get them filled up as a priority and use the good ones for important areas.
Consider setting a couple of Fronts to Assault, they can only build to Fort level 1 but it will relieve the pressure on command points and allow you to make better use of your good leaders and HQs, pluss the CPP bonus.

Supply. Is not as good as you might expect early war, especially if the VVS are being used as bombers which absorb huge amounts of supplies. Review your supply network as the game progresses and build more depots in good time where they are needed. It takes careful management to get city forts stocked up if you are expecting them to be cut off and want them to hold out for a few extra turns.

Building units.
There is a case for building construction SU’s up to capacity, otherwise build nothing until the on map units are full.
Keep track of the Production screen to see what equipment is available, as I understand it build limits are much more of a cap than armament points and you are very short of a lot of the basics.
There are some variations in the build limits and build costs over course of the game.
Remember one unit at 100% fights a lot better than two at 50%.
There is a case for putting a lot of units in the Reserve box or shifting them to under STAVKA (to save on command capacity) at 50% max TOE so that others will fill up. Better one unit at 100% and one at 50% than two at 75%.

Later in the war the Soviets start building more units. Be guided by the equipment available and also by the number of trucks. Building a stack of Mech. Corps if you don’t have enough trucks for them will just trash the rest of your army and without maximum trucks they will have a reduced CV. Always remember that a few good units have much more combat power than loads of half filled out shells. Also keeping your experienced units full with manpower is more important than reinforcing the weak ones. You really need to think through how many Tank units you want and of what type and plan accordingly. This requires looking at the build limits, Trucks available, what is in the reinforcement queue and most important equipment production. Corps will pick up trucks faster if they are built on an National Depot, trucks are critical for the Tank/Mech Corps so keep an eye on that.



Air war.
This is about combat aircraft only.

Soviet air groups start out with max 67 aircraft.
On T7 it goes down to 32.
On T12 it goes down to 20.
The SAD AOGs will eventually all be disbanded so avoid using them where you can.

Consider there are three categories of combat aircraft:
1. Fighters and FB’s flying as fighters.
2. TACs and FB’s flying as bombers.
3. LBs.

Here are my suggestions on how to use the VVS, there may be a better approach and the air war may have changed if you are playing to a more recent patch.
Soviet fighters have little combat power early game, use them to absorb kills to protect your bombers.
Under 8.10 an effective tactic for the VVS is to use them for just a few attacks a turn (GS or maybe GA) , with massed bombers protected by enough fighters to absorb any Luftwaffe kills.
I would put the trained pilots to the IL2s as these are the aircraft that are helping the ground war the most.
Sort your air groups by type into AOGs: Biplanes, I-planes, Migs, Laggs and Yaks, Su-2s, IL2s, Light LBs, Heavy LBs. I would put all but the LBs on Manual upgrade or the AI will unsort them !
Range is directly proportional to Ops losses so you need your aircraft based close to the front line. It may even be better not to fly the LBs at long range. You need to build airbases close to the front line (and near depots) for where you are going to be using the VVS. So the key is lots of aircraft stacked just behind the front line and just a few combats each turn. Also watch your supplies, bombers will drain a lot of supplies away from the land war. Over stacking air bases looks to do less damage than flying a long distance to combat.

As the war progresses you will get all your Tacs upgraded to IL2s, these are what can do the most damage in the ground war. I don’t know where in the game the VVS can start taking on the Luftwaffe in A2A combat, but not in ‘41/’42. If you begin to have an edge in A2A then can look at using converting some of the FBs to Bombers.
Have a look at the properties of different aircraft, Lend Lease often have long range so they can operate from further behind the front line. Some FBs are going to be better for bombing.

NBAD (U2VS and F-Z) air groups are not interchangeable to other Tacs. IMO they are so limited as combat units that it is better to save your pilots for better aircraft.
Note that FB’s trained as bombers are about twice as effective for ground attack as FBs trained as Fighters and operating as bombers.

Morale and Experience matters in the Air War, groups with morale less than around 40 should REST and Experience less than around 40 should go to the Reserve. Later in the war these thresholds can rise. Don’t over use the VVS, that way their Morale and Experience will rise or at least keep at reasonable levels. So don’t take losses more than your trained pilots can replace. However this logic does not really apply if you are just using fighters as cannon fodder.

Ground Support. This is the most effective mission to support the ground way. If you can get GS working outside Axis fighter range you can do a lot of damage, but if the 109’s get at them you can take heavy losses. Always to set all of the VVS to Rest at the end of every turn (until later in the game), that way you won’t get any fighters flying off and committing suicide.

GA-Unit. Can be used to bring a lot of aircraft to bear on one hex, ready for a counter attack. Usually costs less aircraft than using GS.

GA-Airbase. As far as I can tell this is ineffective under the present patch.

GA-Interdiction. Can only be done into enemy hexes. A line of level 3 Interdiction will seriously slow down the Axis advance. If you can get it up to 6 or better it is like a defensive wall, Axis units advancing or attacking through it will take serious damage. Again, there are some periods of the game when this can be useful, once the front lines solidify it is less so. The other use for Interdiction is to create areas of light interdiction over newly captured terrain that Axis will be advancing over. This will stop them using strategic movement and building up prep points. I have not been using interdiction recently and cannot really comment on it’s value.

Naval Patrol. If Axis are Isolating a port then you can counter-NP. Just do it for one phase. Bit of a guessing game as to how much to use and will the Luftwaffe wipe them out. You could also interdict supplies into an Axis port, for example between Constanta and Odessa or Nikolaev if you still hold the Crimea.


Air bases.
There are not nearly enough air bases on the map for the VVS. Consider building some more , they need a construction SU during build and are slower to build in rough terrain. But don’t try and build too many at once as once the SU is assigned it costs an AP to move it away before completion. Ideally you would want to build them just behind where your front line is going to be in December ‘41 - good luck with guessing where that is !

Auto load-outs seems to work as well as changing anything manually.

Admin jobs for every turn.
Build more depots as required and adjust their priorities. Check using ‘8’ that front line troops are close enough to working depots. Best if you have a Depot within 3 hexes of every active airbase but often not possible.
Transfer any available air groups to the map.
Transfer any available ground units to the map, I would usually leave units below 50% TOE in the Reserve box.
Transfer newly filled SUs to the front line. Check if any active SU’s have low TOE and transfer back to STAVKA.
Spend available admin points.
Set air units to Rest.

READ THE MANUAL – it is full of many of the finer points of how the game works.




HardLuckYetAgain -> RE: Soviet players guide. (3/26/2021 2:49:19 PM)

Can a Moderator have these pinned on main page for all to see? Thank you in advance




M60A3TTS -> RE: Soviet players guide. (3/26/2021 4:23:29 PM)

A few things to comment on.

First, tyronec is a superb player and has shredded practically everyone he's played against.

Second, this is copied over from material he posted in the testers forum some time ago, and so some of these comments may not be as relevant as they once were since there have been a lot of changes since then.

Third, there are a few points that he makes that I'll choose to differ with him on. Among them...

a. Getting the Soviet OOB above 4 million in 1941 is almost impossible unless you are playing easy against the AI or are facing a very inexperienced human player. The more typical Red Army in 1941 that is doing just fine will hover between 3.2 and 3.5 million. Soviet manpower production after the Axis have made some headway into the Soviet Union will be between 80-100k and with the sustained losses week in and week out makes it difficult to grow the Red Army beyond that for a while. On turn 24, the Soviets will receive a half million replacements, and that is when you start to see the OOB able to push into the 4 million range.

b. The Red Army is indeed weak, but it is outnumbered in 1941 as well. That said, individual Soviet unis can hit double digit CVs in some cases. This is not WiTE where almost every unit is CV 1 and 2. It's not hard with NM of 50 in the early turns to get some rifle divisions to CV 7 and 8. Certain attachments can even get them to CV 9 or 10. Mechanized and tank divisions also as of turn 4 of the 41 campaign can reach up to 35 movement points, and that can cause an opponent real headaches.

c. Tank divisions are not one hit weapons in all cases. It is when they go up against panzer divisions that they will bleed AFVs heavily. Against German infantry divisions, Soviet tank losses in an engagement can be in the teens or into the 30's but if they have 200+ AFVs, they can live to fight again rather quickly. Also, the Soviets recover a pretty fair number of their lost light tanks from battle, so these units can hang rather well for a while. Lastly, the terrible experience levels of these units at the start can be brought up to their 50 NM level and similar experience in some cases even before the Fall of 41, making them even more potent. This isn't the case with all of them by any means. There will be no lack of CV1 and 2 tank divisions with a handful of tanks, but you can make a fair number of units remain viable for much of 1941.

d. Yes, the Soviet air force could do with some extra airbases, but building them not far from the front in the early war just means you're also building them for your opponent, because they will be overrun. Look to build some bases behind Voronezh and Rostov where it is less likely you will lose control of these in 1941. A few beyond the east bank of the Volkhov River in the north isn't a bad idea either to help out Leningrad should the need arise.

e. Supply is not that much of an issue for the Soviets in 1941 because they are falling back on their depots with intact railyards as the Axis move away from theirs and onto new depots with damaged railyards. Add in air resupply with the VVS where needed and most ground units can remain in a green supply status. As far as the bombers drawing supplies, this is more an Axis issue, again because they are advancing over a scorched earth supply system. The Soviets just need to add some rear area depots some 20 hexes behind the front lines and those can feed the bomber forces. You want the depots for ground units closer to the front anyways, so it's almost like running a 2-tier supply system for front line units and the bombers in the back.

f. Don't get the wrong idea about the SAD disbands. Those don't happen until 1942, so feel free to make full use of them in 1941. Once the SADs do disband, there will be a shortage of AOGs for about 6 weeks and then new ones will start to build the inventory back up.

Points he makes are well worth listening to.

a. Consider keeping the air forces parked during the opponents turn, at least some of your air forces. Having them rest reduces ops losses.

b. GA-airbase indeed doesn't really do much and the game with ops losses will keep players from driving their air forces relentlessly.

c. The Soviets get two assault HQs in 1941 and should be employed. They are very useful as they double prep point recovery and allow your best leaders to have influence over more combat units. CU capacity for a Soviet assault front in 1941 is 28. That is 14 divisions.




Beethoven1 -> RE: Soviet players guide. (3/26/2021 6:18:59 PM)

Do you think it is worthwhile to disband all (or at least many) of the fort units that would otherwise simply surrender to a single hasty attack? In WITE 1 this required admin points AFAIK, but in WITE 2 it does not, so why not just disband them all?




tyronec -> RE: Soviet players guide. (3/26/2021 6:56:04 PM)

quote:

Do you think it is worthwhile to disband all (or at least many) of the fort units that would otherwise simply surrender to a single hasty attack? In WITE 1 this required admin points AFAIK, but in WITE 2 it does not, so why not just disband them all?


When I last played, which was 3 months ago, you had to pay APs so it was not worth it. For free disbands would suggest doing it in a measured way; so if they are about to be overrun then disband them, if they are never going to be of any use disband them but if they serve a purpose in building up/retaining fortification levels then probably hang on to them until they are in danger.




M60A3TTS -> RE: Soviet players guide. (3/26/2021 7:54:35 PM)

Those forts should also not be confused with fortified regions. These are battalion sized units that are much smaller in size. When destroyed, a surprising number of the manpower will often escape. So that together with the AP cost means they are best left alone.




Beethoven1 -> RE: Soviet players guide. (3/26/2021 9:54:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Those forts should also not be confused with fortified regions. These are battalion sized units that are much smaller in size. When destroyed, a surprising number of the manpower will often escape. So that together with the AP cost means they are best left alone.


They cost 0 AP to disband though.




tyronec -> RE: Soviet players guide. (3/26/2021 11:03:14 PM)

quote:

Those forts should also not be confused with fortified regions. These are battalion sized units that are much smaller in size. When destroyed, a surprising number of the manpower will often escape. So that together with the AP cost means they are best left alone.

If they are pocketed none escape. As Axis I would aim to pocket them if practical and mop them up without wasting unnecessary CPP, the row near Odessa can often be picked off this way. Or use them to boost the morale of the Romanian tank division.




tyronec -> RE: Soviet players guide. (3/27/2021 5:46:33 AM)

quote:

d. Yes, the Soviet air force could do with some extra airbases, but building them not far from the front in the early war just means you're also building them for your opponent, because they will be overrun. Look to build some bases behind Voronezh and Rostov where it is less likely you will lose control of these in 1941. A few beyond the east bank of the Volkhov River in the north isn't a bad idea either to help out Leningrad should the need arise.

In my experience the VVS can be a valuable asset to the Soviets early war so it is worthwhile investing in more airbases. However where to build them and how many is difficult to judge:
The Soviets only have a limited number of engineer SUs and manpower to build more is also needed by the combat units. There is no point in initiating builds for more airbases than you have engineers.
It is difficult to know where the front line will be at any time, this will be easier to assess after you have played a few games and there are more AARs posted by competent players but even then you will need to judge how Axis are going to play.
Operating aircraft, and in particular LBs, at long range costs high of Ops losses. So you want airbases as close to the front as possible.
Bombers in particular absorb a lot of supplies, so too many active airbases without a good enough depot network will draw needed supplies away from the ground forces. I do not agree with M60's assessment that managing supplies for the Soviets in '41 is not much of an issue. By the way it is a MAJOR issue once the Soviets go on the offensive.




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