Soviet T1 issues? (Full Version)

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chaos45 -> Soviet T1 issues? (3/26/2021 11:57:05 AM)

So started up Soviet T1....

First off I can see some of the make sense improvements from WITE 1 were not included in WITE 2.

Soviet City AA units still required 15 AP to send to the reserves even when the frontline is close(within 5 hexes)--the improvement to only 1 AP if the frontline is within 5 hexes needs to be added otherwise you are just handicapping the soviet player for no real reason.

Additionally Soviet Airgroups with aircraft remaining and fuel at their airbase that are cut off cannot be sent to the reserve. Unless its just something I cant figure out, cant seem to find anyway to send them to the reserve or transfer them to other airbases--seems transfer is no longer a thing.

Could be my lack of experience with the new system but both these seem initial issues.



loki100 -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/26/2021 12:04:46 PM)

1 - is a design choice, there is substantive evidence that pulling out city defense AA undermined local population morale and took some organising. So the AP cost reflects its something that would have to be authorised at a high level, its not something the local red army command could just set in place

2 - you can send stuff to the reserve in bulk usng the Commander's report (just set your criteria), right clicking on the AOG labels (this can be handy as you can pick the level you want to interact at) or from the airbase.

If you use the AI assist it will clear out even those at cut off airbases, in part by rebasing to where you have set their relevant ground HQ or, if depleted, to the reserve. If you are manually controlling the air war, you need to move those air groups to a non cut off hex and then to the reserve. Handily, you can move air groups simply by clicking on the air army command label and moving the entire air command to a new set of air bases. While this is a bit broadbrush its often fine for the VVS on T1 and gets the air groups roughly where you want them as the game develops

Very general pt, the code base split over 5 years back (possibly more as Morveal took on #1 before the release of WiTW?), its not always that easy to incorporate developments from #1 to #2.



Hanny -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/26/2021 12:27:40 PM)

1 is incorrect SU Front commanders had full rights to deploy AA as AA or AT see TN Dupoy HERO report On The Devolpment of Soviet Air Defence Doctrine,



carlkay58 -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/26/2021 1:06:43 PM)

The Front commanders may have had full rights to redeploy the AA but they still had to answer to STAVKA (Stalin) for the moves.



M60A3TTS -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/26/2021 2:04:31 PM)

1- You can transfer those non-isolated AA units to another city (edit) for 1AP.
1- Not all transfers cost 15AP. AA battalions (not PVO) and naval battalions cost 3AP each.
2- Transfer isolated air units out of the pocket to another base, even those without planes as you would normally. All of the pilots will follow, yes even if there are no planes. Next turn you can send them to the reserves.



Joel Billings -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/26/2021 4:58:08 PM)

I'm pretty sure you can transfer any flak unit from one city to another for the cost of 1 AP (naval/marine cost an extra 1 if not going to a port).



Hanny -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/26/2021 5:10:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

The Front commanders may have had full rights to redeploy the AA but they still had to answer to STAVKA (Stalin) for the moves.



Front commanders reported to the Defence Commisariate, then up from there, this is abstracted in game to STAVKA, which is you the player, I ten to let me do what I do in game as STAVKA.



Dreamslayer -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/26/2021 6:18:23 PM)

quote:

1 - is a design choice, there is substantive evidence that pulling out city defense AA undermined local population morale and took some organising. So the AP cost reflects its something that would have to be authorised at a high level, its not something the local red army command could just set in place

Its a bit strange logic that if you pulling out of a city a such AA battalion (that has just 12 medium AA guns) it will affects a local population morale and took some organising but if you gonna relocate from same city normal combat unit its alright.
The decision about relocating of PVO units(AA units that covers cities) is made by deputy of Front commander. Each Front commander had PVO deputy. So such decisions could be made on Front level.
E.g. - order about relocating 4th PVO Division (2 AA regiments, 2 light AA battalions, AAMG rgt, barrage balloons btn, signal btn etc. - total about 120 medium AA guns, 24 light AA guns in TOE) from Lvov to Tarnopol and Proskurov dated 28 June 1941.
https://pamyat-naroda.ru/documents/view/?id=114790905&backurl=division%5Cпво%20юзф::author%5Cданилов::use_main_string%5Ctrue::group%5Cord::types%5Copersvodki:rasporyajeniya:otcheti:peregovori&static_hash=aca767adb450251f52314f93264fab7ev6



chaos45 -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/27/2021 1:27:13 AM)

So just transfer the AA to another city for 1AP and not reserves....seems strange the differentiation being made but whatever...should just be 1 AP period as they are being evacuated.

Will have to mess with the Air system more....to be honest like some other WITE 1 players I despised the Air system in WITW and this is very similar, once i get more time will see if I can figure out how to force an air transfer of the encircled air units as I was unsuccessful last night after an hour or so of messing with it.

On some levels I think as game designers you need to make a choice on if this is a operational level air war game or one that is mainly concerned with operational ground operations and abstract out the air war more. Because the issue is in PVP the AI air war management will not suffice against a well managed player led air effort, so it forces both players to manage the air war even if they really arent that interested in being Air Army commanders....just my 2 cents.



Sammy5IsAlive -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/27/2021 1:57:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

So just transfer the AA to another city for 1AP and not reserves....seems strange the differentiation being made but whatever...should just be 1 AP period as they are being evacuated.

Will have to mess with the Air system more....to be honest like some other WITE 1 players I despised the Air system in WITW and this is very similar, once i get more time will see if I can figure out how to force an air transfer of the encircled air units as I was unsuccessful last night after an hour or so of messing with it.

On some levels I think as game designers you need to make a choice on if this is a operational level air war game or one that is mainly concerned with operational ground operations and abstract out the air war more. Because the issue is in PVP the AI air war management will not suffice against a well managed player led air effort, so it forces both players to manage the air war even if they really arent that interested in being Air Army commanders....just my 2 cents.


Moving the air groups out should be straightforward - is the process described in One Page Guide #5 not working as described?

Re. the latter point as is so often the case I think it comes down to player-matching. If both players don't want to manage the air game they can agree to lock in the AI assist at the outset and forget about it apart from setting the high level stances/priorities (obviously that relies on the AI performance on either side being roughly equivalent - if in the long run one side's AI is systematically more effective then the Devs will have some work to do to balance it out). If the players are managing the air war themselves then I think it comes down to being open with each other about level of experience/playstyle. I'd imagine that an experienced player micro-managing the air-war will be at a significant advantage compared to a beginner/intermediate player taking a much more broad-brush approach. For me that is not necessarily a game design issue, more a player matching one.

FWIW I completely bounced of WITW (at least in terms of playing the campaign) because of the air stuff. IMO the WITE2 system is much more intuitive once you've had a bit of time playing with it. Plus the air war in general is much more straightforward on the eastern front.



loki100 -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/27/2021 11:22:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: chaos45

....
On some levels I think as game designers you need to make a choice on if this is a operational level air war game or one that is mainly concerned with operational ground operations and abstract out the air war more. Because the issue is in PVP the AI air war management will not suffice against a well managed player led air effort, so it forces both players to manage the air war even if they really arent that interested in being Air Army commanders....just my 2 cents.


simple solution is to set the game up so both players have to use the AI-Assist routines



M60A3TTS -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/27/2021 8:30:46 PM)

Let me do an example for you of the Bialystok Pocket on turn 1. I will be flying out units to Gomel that is outside the pocket.

I drill down the Western Air Command where these units are and click on Bialystok airfield in blue. Since I am sending them a ways I zoom out on the map so that I have both bases in the picture. It's possible that when you tried if you were zoomed in, that the boxes were losing their selected status somehow. This pic shows 4 units located there. I click on each one and make sure the 4 unit symbols are yellow.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/Og4Htv0.jpg[/image]

I then left click, hold it down, and drawing a box around Gomel. You will now see those 4 rectangles have a transfer symbol and in the upper right it says Transfer (4).

Click on that Transfer (4) and in this case I want to get out right now so I hit immediate transfer. If the situation was different and I wanted to wait until the receiving base had plenty of fuel and ammo I could do planned transfer. But here, we just want to escape.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/IVrWBfJ.jpg[/image]

You will then get a pop up to confirm the transfer. Click yes, and off they go.

[image]https://i.imgur.com/0np0IoZ.jpg[/image]



M60A3TTS -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/27/2021 8:33:41 PM)

nada



chaos45 -> RE: Soviet T1 issues? (3/27/2021 11:33:07 PM)

Thanks M60, when i get time to dive in again on the weeknights will try it out.



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