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Larry Holt -> (5/19/2000 10:49:00 PM)

One of the tennants of SP series is don't use up all your shots so as to have some for OP fire. I employ tanks in sections or platoons. One or more will fire at the enemy using up all their shots to build up the "to hit" probability. I then set the OP fire range to something low to avoid breaking the target lock but allow OP fire if someone does pop up nearby. I then rely upon the rest of the section/platoon to use their shots in OP fire.




Paul Vebber -> (5/19/2000 11:23:00 PM)

Larry has hit on what the design is trying to reward, think platoons, not individual units! The comment that the AI should do Opfire for you is exactly what happens now, based on expereince of teh unit, its suppression and the hit/kill chance, and number of "shots" remaing, the AI determines if an opfire is "triggered" by certin events. The problem is that the "perception of threat" is whats important! What that requires to do right is a list for each unit of what the "perceived threats" are in a priority order. That is the sort of change only a new game could implement. So we are left with a desires to implement detailed "ROE" or rules of engagment, engage only certain targets with certain round types at certain ranges. Well think about what that means! Turning units "off and On" or saying don't fire unless fired at until the enemy is within range" are unambiguous. That is a LOT different than assuming a specific degree of target ID, acquisition and threat assessment has been made. The design assumption is that, while you the player are an eye in the sky with OUTSTANDING situational awareness, your troops are mere mortals (well Ok they have ESP to share targeting and ID data instantaneously, but that requires more "lists" of with whom and how fast info can travel around the force, and with what accuracy - again new game) who do not have the knowledge you the player has about the ID of all the enemy units. To implement detailed control of ammo type, implies the "troops" all have teh same amount of info about the enemy that you do. Instead the assumption is that chaos regns and your troops, depending on experience, a good deal of time pick correctly, but a are far from perfect and waste a significant portion of their "silver bullets" on the wrong thing! On a smokey chaotic battlefield where you just saw a TIger disappear behind a bilding, and a few seconds later - motion near teh other side - BANG you shoot that Sabot round - but dang it it was a HT poking around as teh smoke clears a bit and the Tiger is motoringback the other way... Command, control and communications is teh bugaboo of wargaming. "Realism" form a C3 standpoint just isn't fun because teh reality is there still is very little "control". IT was even worse in WW2. SO a Game has to balance an inherant lack of consistency between "realism", (which I like to call "detail" because as was stated, anybody who uses the word "realistic" with a GAME loses any credibility in my book...we do it all teh time, but mean "technical detail" 99% of teh time...) and FUN. Games must be FUN or no one will buy them, but each design picks certain issues to deal with, and certain ways of dealing with it. I deal with C3 issues a lot in my "real" warfare analyst job, so I tend to fail toward "less control is good". A lot of people don't agree, becasue to them, they hate lose a game because their Cyber subordinates screwed up something they knew better of! To come full circle, as Larry as said, you can adjust your TACTICS to account for this lack of control, and oh by the way they tend to be more "historical" too, becasue realworld commanders can't expect detailed orders about what to engage when with what, and aduft their tactics instead. OPfire is and has been a "pet peeve" of mine, and will be one of my focal points for possible changes




Charles22 -> (5/20/2000 12:09:00 AM)

Paul: Is my observation correct? Are units which have exhausted all of their fire on the player's turn, then able to counterfire still, or at least against what is directly firing at the unit? Myself? I like to exhaust all of my shots, because I "hope" my tanks don't reacquire targets (no shots, no reacquires, right?). What could be more silly than to have that inaccurate PZIVC shooting at one of the Polish tanks, building up accuracy for a tank which has some pretty good armor for the period, then leave one or two shots for op fire, only to have the PZIVC op fire on a non-tank threat like a halftrack? Then my PZIVC has to start with minimal accuracy against the Polish tank again next player turn. I suppose, IF I felt like scrolling through all of my tanks, first, I would find that another tank may had been the one doing op fire on the same Polish tank, but it really does complicate things to me. Now, however, if units really can op fire without any shots left over, strictly against only fire against the unit itself, the picture is changed considerably. Oh, one last thing. I've noticed, occassionally, that when I see the last target in the unit dialog, that it will say, for example that the unit had a distant mortar as target, which unless I'm very much mistaken, was the same target I told it to open up on with my last shot, however, sometimes hitting the target function won't go to the last target fired at, but instead will choose the closest enemy unit. Is this possibly a bug? Is this sort of mixup possibly the result of this weird 'hidden shots' thing that I think I've noticed in op fire?




Paul Vebber -> (5/20/2000 1:40:00 AM)

Yes, even if you lose all your shots in your turn, you can still Opfire, though the odds of it being "triggered" are less. The shots are then deducted from your next turns allotment. I use tactics similar to Larry Holt, where I try to keep "overwatching" units that I leave many shots remaining with, or fire one or two at the principle enemies I want to OPfire against, so at least one is "locked on" if the enemy moves or returns fire. What may be happening is you stay locked onto the last target that "triggered" an opfire check, but that unit failed the experience roll to actually fire at it. The "triggers" for Opfire likely need some work, but I know that the whole area of Opfire is work that may not be possible right now...




Kharan -> (5/20/2000 8:00:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: The comment that the AI should do Opfire for you is exactly what happens now, based on expereince of teh unit, its suppression and the hit/kill chance, and number of "shots" remaing, the AI determines if an opfire is "triggered" by certin events.
When we were still adjusting to the new opfire rules in SPWW2, we did a few tests and found out that facing and speed govern the opfire probability. i.e. a tank opfired an incoming foe at 12 hexes, but if the tank was facing the other way, opfire would happen at 6 hexes, and if the tank was also moving, it would opfire at a few hexes range. Is the principle still valid?




Paul Vebber -> (5/21/2000 7:03:00 AM)

In principle, yes, but you will find the relationships more complex...




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