AI cheating

AI cheating (Full Version)

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nosfer121 -> AI cheating (3/31/2021 9:24:21 AM)
I have a question: Is it possible to prevent the AI from cheating? Is there an option in the configurations?

Platoonist -> RE: AI cheating (3/31/2021 12:44:10 PM)
There are pre-game options to give the AI advantages in spotting and such. None to give it handicaps that I know of unless it is in the editor.

nosfer121 -> RE: AI cheating (3/31/2021 1:40:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Platoonist There are pre-game options to give the AI advantages in spotting and such. None to give it handicaps that I know of unless it is in the editor. Hmm, I don't want to give the AI handicaps, but I want the AI to play with the same ressources than the humam player. If I play aganst the AI to test some strategies for my next match against a human player, it would be a better test, if the AI would have to perform with the same ressoures than later on my human opponent. Maybe it is impossible, because the AI is so bad, they must cheat to be worthwhile opponent in any manner.

Platoonist -> RE: AI cheating (3/31/2021 3:17:44 PM)
If the AI in this game does cheat as most AIs do, I can't say I am terribly aware of it. But, then I'm really anxious to know either. Nothing ruins the illusion of a good A.I. like clearly seeing or knowing how they're cheating.

Hubert Cater -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 4:24:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nosfer121 I have a question: Is it possible to prevent the AI from cheating? Is there an option in the configurations? Hi nosfer121, If I can ask, why do you think the AI is cheating? I only ask as the AI plays by the same rules as a human player, e.g. supply, combat, combat results, unit movement etc., with the exception of the options and bonuses that are provided to it via the OPTIONS screen. Within the OPTIONS screen you can select to provide the AI with additional income, experience and/or spotting bonuses. But these of course all have to be enabled as they are off by default. The only other bonuses the AI receives are UNIT bonuses, and even here not all will come into play, mostly depends on if it needs help on the offense or defense etc., and many are tied into the difficulty level. For example, if you play at the default level many will not be seen in game. But even here these can all be disabled as well via the OPTIONS->ADVANCED->SCRIPTS and then the UNIT event list where you can turn off all AI related UNIT events. Hope this helps, Hubert

nosfer121 -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 7:18:33 AM)
Hi Hubert, I respect Platoonist view on this topic. Therefore is it possible that we discuss this per E-Mail? I don't want to ruin his illusion more than I have done already. Thanks a lot.

Platoonist -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 12:48:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nosfer121 Hi Hubert, I respect Platoonist view on this topic. Therefore is it possible that we discuss this per E-Mail? I don't want to ruin his illusion more than I have done already. Thanks a lot. It's okay. I'll just give this thread a wide berth from this point on. [:D]

Hubert Cater -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 2:01:44 PM)
Hi Nosfer121, Entirely up to you, as you can send me a private message through the forums, or we can continue to discuss here. I'm open to any discussion on the AI as we don't really have anything to hide in terms of AI cheating. I just say this as the AI has been developed for the last 20 years or so and we've always been quite open about what it does and what it's limitations are. The topic of AI cheating also comes up from time to time and the answer is pretty much always the same, in that it doesn't cheat, only helped via whatever bonus settings players decide to provide the AI and these are all clearly marked in the OPTIONS screen and off by default. Hubert

ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 2:16:47 PM)
The A.I. is cheating!!! ---April Fools

nosfer121 -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 2:29:49 PM)
Okay, with the agreement from Platoonist, I will write it down here. quote: ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater I only ask as the AI plays by the same rules as a human player, e.g. supply, combat, combat results, unit movement etc., with the exception of the options and bonuses that are provided to it via the OPTIONS screen. I don't think that the AI cheats on the battle field, but in the economical part of the game. My concerns started with my last game as the Axies against the AI. I played with the default difficulties, and all went quite normal for me. In the June 1940 turn I have captured Nanning, and in the May turn Changsa and the towns between them. I looked into the statistics and I was astonished to see, that the Chinese have 44 units left. They start with 30, and I know that with the fall of Changsa and Nanning a human chinese player gets 1 army each. It is the event "Destroyed forces of Changsa rebuild there army at ...". With the units I have destroyed so far, the chinese have had to build more than 2 units a turn and replenish there troops in oder to achieve 44 units. I know that this is impossible to a human player. When I played the chinese the MPPs were barely enough to replace the losses, but not to build up my forces by 50%. How could that be? I start a new game, and wrote down the start situation of every Allies nation in an excel file. One sheet per nation. I made screenshots all over the world to cover all units and to see which units will be replenished. Then I played two turns as the Axies, saved the game, load again and take the control of the Allies. In this way I could see, what the AI Allies player did in his first turn. In this manner I played the first 4 turns, taking fresh screenshots, fill in the lines in the excel file etc. Here some examples: England starts with 125 MPP. In the first turn there overall research costs raises from 1200 to 1350. How? In the same turn they bought a Canadian light cruiser (225 MPP) and replenished troops in Africa for 45 MPP. How with 125 MPP at the start? In the second turn, they again invest 175 MPP in the research, but also 169 MPP in replenishments. They start turn 2 with 277 MPP. So they spend 67 MPP more than they start the round with. In every 4 turns England uses more MPP than they start the round with. France starts the third round with 128 MPP. But they can achive a research option in that turn for 175 MPP. China starts the 4th round with 206 MPP, but is able to raise the research budget from 550 to 800. My impression is, that the AI orders units, research options and replenishments as is needed, regardless of the MPP costs. That is a bit more cheating than a unit or two more once in a while. As I stated above, I play the AI mainly to test strategies for the next PBeM.But it is really difficult to evaluate the results of submarine strategies or a war of attriction, when MPPs doensn't matter for the AI.

ElvisJJonesRambo -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 2:39:13 PM)
A.I. Scandal! Guess(es): 1) You are on a different setting of AI skill (doubt it, because sounds like you know what your talking about) 2) The AI is selling Units or Techs to get the MMPs 3) You might be right Sincerely, Q'AnonMMPs P.S. Every considered a job as an Insurance Auditor?

Hubert Cater -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 8:59:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nosfer121 I don't think that the AI cheats on the battle field, but in the economical part of the game. My concerns started with my last game as the Axies against the AI. I played with the default difficulties, and all went quite normal for me. In the June 1940 turn I have captured Nanning, and in the May turn Changsa and the towns between them. I looked into the statistics and I was astonished to see, that the Chinese have 44 units left. They start with 30, and I know that with the fall of Changsa and Nanning a human chinese player gets 1 army each. It is the event "Destroyed forces of Changsa rebuild there army at ...". With the units I have destroyed so far, the chinese have had to build more than 2 units a turn and replenish there troops in oder to achieve 44 units. I know that this is impossible to a human player. When I played the chinese the MPPs were barely enough to replace the losses, but not to build up my forces by 50%. The AI as mentioned above does receive free units to it at no cost and these are listed in the OPTIONS->ADVANCED->SCRIPTS screen under the UNIT event list. The Chinese specific ones are listed starting on page 18 and listed under ALLIED AI: China - etc. Based on your description and the advances you achieved, and how things are scripted for the Chinese AI here, they would receive about 10 units. For example, had you not taken Nanning and Changsha and not pushed towards Sian they would have received less. Replacing losses for the AI is the same as a human player, e.g. 60% cost, plus the Chinese have 4 units in the Production Queue that would have arrived by the end of June 1940, so having around 44 units would make sense within this entire context. Again, these units are added in to help the AI accordingly and can be disabled at any time in the OPTIONS->ADVANCED->SCRIPTS screen, however, if the goal is to get a better feel of what it is like to play a human player I almost hesitate to suggest turning these off. I just suggest this as the entire reason they have been added is to make up for some of the AI shortcomings versus how a human player would play. Typically the AI has a harder time making up for losses and planning accordingly for this, this can snowball quickly in a bad way for the AI, which is why a few extra units here and there based on game play (in this case to help it defend a bit better while it recovers from losses) was found to help it the most in this regard. But of course the option is indeed there to disable it which is why we've added it in and made it accessible to players to do so as they see fit. quote: I start a new game, and wrote down the start situation of every Allies nation in an excel file. One sheet per nation. I made screenshots all over the world to cover all units and to see which units will be replenished. Then I played two turns as the Axies, saved the game, load again and take the control of the Allies. In this way I could see, what the AI Allies player did in his first turn. In this manner I played the first 4 turns, taking fresh screenshots, fill in the lines in the excel file etc. Here some examples: England starts with 125 MPP. In the first turn there overall research costs raises from 1200 to 1350. How? In the same turn they bought a Canadian light cruiser (225 MPP) and replenished troops in Africa for 45 MPP. How with 125 MPP at the start? Thanks for these very specific examples as this is helpful and I was able to dig down and figure out what was happening exactly. It looks like there is a bug within the AI research chit assignment routine, e.g. if you watch the turn the unit reinforcements are acting as they should, reinforce and MPPs are being deducted accordingly, then at the very end of the turn the AI performs its research checks and this is where it is assigning a chit without paying for it. I run through a series of loops here and the error doesn't always happen, as there is some randomness in what the AI will invest in based on the scripts and in my case I had to run through a few times before I saw it. For me it was a 125 MPP investment into Production Technology that put it at 1325 research MPP spent when it only had 2 MPP in the bank at that point. Regarding the Canadian Light Cruiser, I didn't see this on my end, I checked the Production Queue and at the start the Canadians are already set to receive 2 Destroyers and there is a New Zealand Cruiser also already in the queue, perhaps this is the one you saw? If not please do feel free to send me a saved turn to support@furysoftware.com and I'd be happy to take a closer look. quote: In the second turn, they again invest 175 MPP in the research, but also 169 MPP in replenishments. They start turn 2 with 277 MPP. So they spend 67 MPP more than they start the round with. In every 4 turns England uses more MPP than they start the round with. France starts the third round with 128 MPP. But they can achive a research option in that turn for 175 MPP. China starts the 4th round with 206 MPP, but is able to raise the research budget from 550 to 800. My impression is, that the AI orders units, research options and replenishments as is needed, regardless of the MPP costs. That is a bit more cheating than a unit or two more once in a while. As I stated above, I play the AI mainly to test strategies for the next PBeM.But it is really difficult to evaluate the results of submarine strategies or a war of attriction, when MPPs doensn't matter for the AI. No the AI as mentioned should act within the same rules as a human player and if it doesn't then it is either an oversight or a bug. I only say this as there are just too many ways for players to verify that the AI is acting accordingly for us to get away with any of these kinds of cheats while at the same time claiming the AI does not cheat. For example, this is why anyone is able to see with Fog of War off what units the AI reinforces and how much it has spent to see it is above board. Comparing what the AI starts with in the Production Queue when viewing in the Editor and then comparing against what it has purchased in the first turn, or in any subsequent turns is easy enough to see that it is spending within its limits. Comparing the results of a turn in Fog of War versus not in Fog of War can also verify that everything is above board as well. Looks like there was however a small bug in the Research routine, and to be honest I'm surprised it hasn't been noticed until now, so thank you for this and consider it fixed for the next update.

Hubert Cater -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 9:07:51 PM)
One caveat I should add though is that the AI does, later in the game have the opportunity to receive some free research investments but it is specifically scripted this way, not because of the bug I had just mentioned above. In fact, for AI unit purchases, diplomacy and research there is a flag in the scripts that give the AI the opportunity to receive those items listed in the scripted event beyond what it is normally able to afford. It may not actually do this, e.g. if it has the funds then it will spend appropriately, it just helps the AI to ensure that it picks up some critical investments when it has to in order for it to remain competitive in the long run. For example, if Germany is to have any long term success some critical research investments are required such as Heavy Tanks. But if it was forced to spend heavily on reinforcements or in preparation for an offensive it might not have sufficient funds at the end of a turn around that time for it to do so. If it doesn't invest, then it can as mentioned snowball in a bad way for the AI and ruin the game experience. The idea here is a managed helping hand at specific points for all nations to just make sure it is doing what it needs to do. But even this can be disabled by turning off these events in the Editor from a custom campaign version of the default campaign. However, since this is not yet accessible in game, and has been on my list to add for some time, and in the interest of continued transparency I will look to add access to these events in game as well for the next patch. In the meantime, simply look at the events listed as FORCED for Research and Diplomacy in the Editor. The AI at this time does not receive any FORCED help for unit Purchases as it wasn't deemed necessary and because we could better fine tune the AI via specific UNIT script bonuses instead. Hope this helps, Hubert

Hubert Cater -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 9:13:47 PM)
One way to confirm the Research bug is to disable research in the OPTIONS->ADVANCED settings and then turn it back on again after the first Allied turn to see that it did not spend any research money that it didn't have (because it was disabled) while spending the correct amounts on reinforcement and purchases.

Dorky8 -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 9:17:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ElvisJJonesRambo The A.I. is cheating!!! ---April Fools Every now and then someone comes out of the woodwork and because they aren't winning say the AI cheats. [>:] [8\|]

nosfer121 -> RE: AI cheating (4/1/2021 10:36:18 PM)
Thanks Hubert for digging into this case. Your explanations helps me a lot, espacially about disableing the scripts when needed. You are right with the cruiser. It isn't a Canadian one, it is the New Zealand one. It jumps into the production list when New Zealand declares war on Germany. In my case New Zealand didn't declare war in the first turn, but in the second. Therefore I got the impression it was bought in the first round. With the possibility to disable the scripts you have answered my starting question too. I agree that it is good to have this additional units in a normal game against the AI for a better game experience. I didn't meant to remove that from the game. In the end I'm glad I could help you to find a small bug. Again thanks a lot for your effords and for this great game.

OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: AI cheating (4/2/2021 6:32:49 AM)
Ahh! So there was a wee bug found...[:D] [image]local://upfiles/72627/95ABD3516BD2401C97B97C1BA5CE46B1.jpg[/image]

Hubert Cater -> RE: AI cheating (4/2/2021 12:41:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nosfer121 Thanks Hubert for digging into this case. Your explanations helps me a lot, espacially about disableing the scripts when needed. You are right with the cruiser. It isn't a Canadian one, it is the New Zealand one. It jumps into the production list when New Zealand declares war on Germany. In my case New Zealand didn't declare war in the first turn, but in the second. Therefore I got the impression it was bought in the first round. With the possibility to disable the scripts you have answered my starting question too. I agree that it is good to have this additional units in a normal game against the AI for a better game experience. I didn't meant to remove that from the game. In the end I'm glad I could help you to find a small bug. Again thanks a lot for your effords and for this great game. My pleasure and thank you for all the feedback and detailed info, it is always the most helpful way for us to be able to track down any outstanding issues like the one you've discovered here.

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