New to WitE(1&2) - Counter CV (Full Version)

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b0sc02 -> New to WitE(1&2) - Counter CV (3/31/2021 7:34:20 PM)

So I'm relatively new to any War in the East game, which means I'm making my way through the manual. There is a good chance that I'm just missing where this is located in the 500+ pages. If so, I would love to read up about the answer from the manual than waste anyone's time with a full detailed response. I'm really trying to dive deep to understand the more granular aspects to really enjoy the experience.

How does the game calculate the counter CV? I know that game takes into account many factors such as morale, TOE%, etc. However, I really want to know how much each TOE contributes to the overall CV.

My goal:
1) match baseline CV from mapping each TOE
2) calculate each modifier by following the manual
3) compare to the counter CV number

My second goal is to then map how the base CV results in the adjusted CV in any particular engagement. Again, I found in the manual various factors that would result in adjusted CV, but I don't see the variable results (die rolls, disrupted units, etc.) in a log that let's me know if I was just really (un)lucky or smart/stupid for choosing a particular attack. This is especially true when I see some combat results bring the AI down to 0 and I would love to understand why. Am I just missing where the log shows the various die rolls?




loki100 -> RE: New to WitE(1&2) - Counter CV (3/31/2021 7:53:37 PM)

1- the raw data for this is in the annex 34.4. Now that is useful but also tells you that the CV concept is not that *reliable*. So for eg a medium tank = 9, so at the start, that means a BT-7 and a T34 have the same value.

2 - here's a bit of a 'alice [1]' guide to the manual, read 23.1.1 and starts to explain how those raw values are modified by circumstances, 23.8.2 contains this warning

"The final overall combat values displayed at the bottom of the screen at the end of the battle may not bear any resemblance to the CV’s on the counters as they not only reflect losses suffered during the battle, but have been heavily modified due to numerous random fact" - cling to that cheery sentence, its very relevant.

Now 22.8.3 gets into the details of the modification, all the things that can influence the raw values. Note 23.8.5 (and now we have left the world of fixed mathematical relations and we are into probabilities - more on the leadership strand at 15.5)

Now we are not finished, combat is dynamic, stuff drops out of use - 23.8.7

Oh and course fog of war, you can trust your raw numbers, you can't trust what you see.

In the player's notes 30.9.5 is handy as it gives you some situations where the sentence cited above is particularly relevant.

From your query you have a handle on some of this but there a lot of die rolls around leadership checks, support unit commitments etc, so it often has a lot of random elements.

There are 3 ways to get some feel for what goes on. Have a look at the detailed combat result tabs - ground losses/ground combat will give a decent overview of what was going on. Run a (small) battle at speed 7. It'll tell you that the sprockets on your tank came loose and a fighter pilot was late as he wanted to drink his coffee once it had cooled (I exagerate a little - but it will show you in incredible detail just what is going on). You won't do this very often but you cannot see this any other way and it is informative.

Final method, set up a combat, save, run, repeat, say about 10 times. That might give you some idea for the scale of variation.

All this is a long way of saying the CV is a guide, with experience it becomes a decent giude, but it can be hugely misleading too.


[1] as in down the rabbit hole [8D]




b0sc02 -> RE: New to WitE(1&2) - Counter CV (4/1/2021 2:22:23 PM)

Wow! Thanks for the detailed response. I took some time looking at all the points that your referenced. I tried to figure out the raw CV, but (as you stated would be the case) I was unable to make the numbers tied. I wasn't too surprised based on reading all the manual references you listed.

I really like your idea of testing the variability of the same combat a dozen times or so. I think that'll really help me understand the scope of the randomness. I tested out a couple theories last night on the Leningrad scenario just to leave the mission even more confused. There were times I had a slight CV disadvantage (Att 20 - Def 23) and I shattered the enemy. In those instances, it looks like my attack disrupted a lot of enemy units, which resulted in an adjusted CV advantage of 100+. Other times I would try similar attacks and get absolutely crushed on the odds.

I think my experience would be greatly enhanced if I could see why there was such a difference in attacks. Now, in my example, these we two separate attacks with different unit compositions, terrain, leaders, etc. However, how do I know the difference didn't come down to a failed leader roll on bringing in ART that would disrupt a major element of the enemy composition? I did increase the combat message detail (and consequently saw that my leader stubbed his toe getting out of bed, causing him to sit out for the fight [8|]). I guess what I'm looking for is a log that lists all the detail after the fight so I can read through the minutiae to understand what made me succeed or fail. Does that post-battle written log exist (not to be confused with the detail below the battle recap)?




loki100 -> RE: New to WitE(1&2) - Counter CV (4/1/2021 3:25:19 PM)

no it doesn't, so the only way to see it is to take the battle really slowly.

As you've found there is more. While lots of bits count into the cv, the 'combat elements' are very important for unit integrity.

If enough of those are disrupted or worse then a unit can collapse and a hold beoome a retreat or rout - that is, fortunately, fairly rare but can happen if a unit has been fighting hard without a rest for some time or if it is low experience etc




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