Matilda II's in the MC (Full Version)

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NateD -> Matilda II's in the MC (7/11/2001 2:34:00 AM)

I know we've discussed this at least once before but I think it is a real bug. I have just replayed three battles in the MC and have gotten the same dang results. I attack M II's with everything I have and they are almost indestructible. When I can sneak up some infantry, I can usually take them out BUT I just shot one 43 times and received 4 "suspension hit" messages, 4 "hull damage" messages, 3 "turret damage" and 3 "Crew stunned" messages. Those were a combo of rear, and flank shots. The dang thing would not die and still shot up 2 PIII's before the crew dismounted on the next turn. And the crew only dismounted when I surrounded the tank on all 6 sides. That total is about 4 turns worth of 4 P IVD's and 6 PIII's shooting at nothing but that one M II. I would think that after the 2nd hull damage or the 2nd or third suspension damage it would make the crew bail. But it didn't. They even moved three hexes after all that suspension damage. There has to be some kind of calculation or something error for these tanks to be that strong. In the "Stop that train" scenario I lose 3 PIII's and usually at least 1 P IVD to the two MII's. Would one of you guys please take a look at this when you get a chance? I know yall are busy but this can't be right, can it? Please don't tell me I'm just wrong, :D Thanks for lettin me vent,



Don -> (7/11/2001 2:48:00 AM)

They are super-tough, but after firing on it say 10-20 times I doubt if it should be firing back at all. Usually you can supress them to where they just sit there - at the time we made those scenarios you could anyway. Maybe someone can look at that OOB and see if it's correct. [ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: Don ]



TheZel66 -> (7/11/2001 2:53:00 AM)

I had no problem with them. In fact, I thought they were a little soft. Often, i was able to kill them with AC's



NateD -> (7/11/2001 3:02:00 AM)

Thanks for the replies guys! 1. They are vulnerable to infantry when you can get close to them. 2. I counted the hits and up until the one tank was surrounded on all 6 sides it shot and killed 2 PIII's and moved 3 hexes after receiving 32 hits. I waited 3 turns before I closed with it in hopes that at least of of my 75mm guns would get a good hit. It never happened. I got the damage messages but it never silenced or suppressed the M II. So I decided to try and move up. I shot it 4 times at point blank range with a hit % of 99 with my PIVD and its 75mm. 4 hits and no damage or suppression cause the dang thing then shot my PIVD and my crew bailed. 3. Uh, whats and AC? LoL! :p I've come across this in three separate scenarios. The train one, the next one where you are to cut off the Indians and Brits at Mesa Al Berga (I think thats right) and one other scenario that I was attacking the Brits in. it is just so frustrating to hit the tank with 6-10 tanks with 3-4 shots each and actually hit your target but to have no effect whatsoever. Again thanks for taking the time to give me some feed back. And BTW I am using 6.01 thanks to Paul and WB! [ July 10, 2001: Message edited by: NateD ]



bigjim -> (7/11/2001 3:17:00 AM)

Why is it that guys with over 2k posts on any BBS seem to always have some "glib" answer to someone who is new and asking questions??? :eek:



Nikademus -> (7/11/2001 3:18:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by NateD: Please don't tell me I'm just wrong, :D Thanks for lettin me vent,
ok, i wont tell you your wrong :p But the Matilda II was indeed a tough bird. I dont think it would be too out of bounds to call it the "Tiger" tank of the early war period, only without the killer gun (still adequate, at least until the debut of the uparmored and face hardened armor Pz-III's and IV's) Matiltas had ALOT of armor, including around the suspension too. I've seen events of the type you describe from WAW all the way back to SP-1 (heh, in fact you gave me a memory lane trip.....one of the most memorable SP-1 games i had was UK vs Germany in France where i ran into a couple of those pesky tanks. At one point i had one of them surrounded on all six hex sides with 90% of my kampgruppe, pouring lead into it from all sides and getting nothing but tink tink tink tink tink tink tink TINKTINKTINKTINKTINKTINKTINKTINK must have hit the damn thing 40+ times before finally getting a suspension disabled message. And that was BEFORE all the Matrix tweaks to the Ready-Buttoned-Retreating-Routed routine. Though it can get frustrating at times i'll take Matrix's more unpredicitble crew characteristic qualities vs the "gaming" like method employed by previous incarnations of SP where you could predict how many hits it would take to supress a vehicle, lose all of its op fire shots and then breath easily. does'nt happen in WAW my friend. That supressed tank might pass a morale check and get a special op fire and cause your blood pressure to rise. :D Had that happen to me with a Russian Antitank gun. Supressed it to hell with a whole platoon of tanks and killed all but one crew member, who in Hero of the motherland fashion managed to get two special op fire passes and toasted two more of my panzers bringing the gun's total tally to 6 Facist panzers destroyed. (casing the head Facist (ME!) to have a fit of the vapors. I could laugh about it afterwards though and appreciated the unpredictableness of the game system. I suspect in your case that you had the unfortunate luck to come across well experienced Commonwealth crews who trusted in their steel beast. Makes you wish for one of those new Marders converted to carry the rechambered Russian 76.2mm gun eh? :D



Don -> (7/11/2001 4:04:00 AM)

In testing the MC, Matidas were very vulnerable to infantry (as is every tank), and other than that you needed an 88 or a lucky shot. I don't remember EVER seeing an AC take out a Matilda! :eek: But most of the time you had to gang up on them and supress them with alot of hits. Matildas are great for the AI side since it gives the AI "staying power", and you can use them to make the player "scramble" from place to place. :D



General Mayhem -> (7/11/2001 4:29:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Don: In testing the MC, Matidas were very vulnerable to infantry (as is every tank), and other than that you needed an 88 or a lucky shot. I don't remember EVER seeing an AC take out a Matilda! :eek: But most of the time you had to gang up on them and supress them with alot of hits. Matildas are great for the AI side since it gives the AI "staying power", and you can use them to make the player "scramble" from place to place. :D
Didn't some early british tank had a problem with the ricoching staples? I don't know is this true, but I've understood way British tanks were build somehow diffrenltly using somekind of staples. Effect was that when tanks was enough hard hit, the staples could start to fly inside the tank possibly injuring the tank crew.



Grumble -> (7/11/2001 4:58:00 AM)

I think perhaps you mean "rivets". Yes, riveted armor plate, when hit on the seams, would shear off the rivets and send them flying into the interior. One of the reasons for persisting with riveted plate is ease of assembly; welding armor plate takes a good amount of technical know-how, and is expensive.



Wild Bill -> (7/11/2001 5:05:00 AM)

Tha Matilda II and the 2 Pounder AT gun rurned out to be Dietsl's worst nightmares in the desert. You think you are frustrated? You shoulda been with us before they were improved :eek: :eek: ! Around and around we went with OOB team, back and forth. Then again, when one considers that up until September he is fighting with the MkIIIe and the 37mm pop-gun it is a little more understandable. The newer PzIIIh that you'll have for Operation Crusader is a little better. But it is a looooooooong way to November from where you are now. Pound a Matilda. Keep pounding it. Suppress the crew and try to keep it suppressed. Close assault with infantry when you can. They can be killed but it ain't easy :mad: Ask the testers. The tearstains on the reports are still there :D Wild Bill



Alexandra -> (7/11/2001 9:17:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Don: In testing the MC, Matidas were very vulnerable to infantry (as is every tank), and other than that you needed an 88 or a lucky shot. I don't remember EVER seeing an AC take out a Matilda! :eek: But most of the time you had to gang up on them and supress them with alot of hits. Matildas are great for the AI side since it gives the AI "staying power", and you can use them to make the player "scramble" from place to place. :D
I had some success, myself, with 50mm ATGs from flank and rear, and had good success with the Italian 47mm ATG, as well, in the tests. Alex



Larry W. Wilson -> (7/11/2001 9:32:00 AM)

I'm not the greatest player, but Ive had a lot of success against Matilda II's by...*pounding them with my PzIIIE's *blinding them with smoke from PzIVd's *assaulting them with infantry/engineers The Matilda II was a tough opponent acording to all the material I've read about the desert war.



NateD -> (7/11/2001 10:25:00 AM)

I am glad to see such a response to this. Knowing that they are indeed that tuff makes me feel better. I just wanted to make sure what I was seeing was the way it was intended. Guess this isn't such a good item for my beta tester resume, huh? LoL. Thanks again and now back to the desert I go!



Possum -> (7/11/2001 12:16:00 PM)

Hello NateD Matilda's are certinly tough tanks. I recall hoew frustrated they made me in testing some scenarioes for MCNA. I basicly evolved the tactic of pounding them with aritllery, smoking them to block LOS and then bypassing them, if they where not actually stopping me from acheiving the mission objective. Otherwize they just toast too many of your vehicles while you try to assult them. There is a humorous reply I did several months ago on the same subject, with respect to my experience as playing both the British and Germans in North Africa. To summerise Matilda's German Point of view: Indestructable, 2lbdr gun always hits, always kills what it hits, only an 88 has a chance of stopping this rampaging monster. British pont of view: Slow, Can't hit the side of a barn door at 100 paces, the dinky 2lbdr gun can only kill halftracks and lt armoured cars. Fortunately it appears to be immune to 37mm AP, but 50mm AP can kill it.



mr172 -> (7/11/2001 12:29:00 PM)

Yap Nate, and think that while in betatesting the Matilda was wrongly equipped with the apcr rounds. so they not only are impervious to german rounds but, more or less, any bullet that they shot disabled one of our panzer. Anyway. Matilda are hard but slow. If possible avoid the confrontation. Outflank, take the long road, tease'em and try to draw out of your main route, punch from side. Every damage to the suspension reduce thier speed to a couple of hex. But over all ask for 88 to supreme HQ :D Massimo



New York Jets -> (7/11/2001 12:38:00 PM)

Sounds like another German with a classic case of "Matilda-itis".



Don -> (7/11/2001 4:21:00 PM)

Everyone that plays the MC will be a "German with Matilda-itis"! :D



panda124c -> (7/11/2001 7:19:00 PM)

Just think how the Italians felt when at the begining O'Conners Matilda II's came runbling into their encampments from the rear. At Arras the SS broke and ran from Matilda IIs until Rommel personally directed some 88's to stop them. Having a hard time with Matilda II is something we are all painfully aware of. :mad:



BA Evans -> (7/12/2001 12:58:00 AM)

Pz IV max. penetration = 54 (AP) Pz III max. penetration = 64 (AP) Compare that with the armor on the Matilda II. Front = 82mm Sides = 75mm Rear = 55mm Of course you have a hard time destroying the Matilda II. The Pz IV doesn't have enough power to penetrate the armor, even the rear armor. The Pz III can only penetrate the rear armor, and then you have to be practically point blank. Use a different weapon if you want to destroy the Matilda II. Different tactics would also help you. BA Evans



pbhawkin1 -> (7/12/2001 8:54:00 AM)

Hi all, Having played the first scenario of the MC a few times I have experienced the following RE Matilda II's. Yes they are hard to kill! SPOILER follows . . . In the first scenario I believe that you MUST destroy/disable them otherwise they will run about reclaiming your victory hexs if you exit your forces too early after completing your mission (of destroying the train and ammo dumps). IE you must wait (assuming you have completed your mission) until they appear and destroy/disable them before exiting your tank force via the german exit hexes. (same with the armoured cars that appear). I did kill one with a Skdfz 222 with a rear shot! I also killed one with a PZ IIIe on its first shot from the side! BUT these were the two exceptions, usually I had to hit then with smoke, 2-3 PZ III's, and infantry before they were either destroyed or more usually abandoned. regards Peter (Capt) RAAMC



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (7/12/2001 11:34:00 AM)

I love the Matilda II myself. I deliberately forced my buddy into playing in France not long ago just so that for once he couldnt stuff tiger tanks down my throat as always. And he didnt like it, not one bit. And the icing on the cake was I spent money on support from heavy artillery so his tanks couldnt just hide on me (hot seat game full disclosure is a bitch to play fairly). I started with a nice smoke screen and gleefully sat in it with my Matildas for his over confident panzers. It didnt seem like a fair fight, and it wasnt. He was not impressed that nothing was happening to my tanks. Early war strategy was about the only weakness with the Matilda. Its gun sucked but its targets armour also sucked. If you hang in there with the 2 pdr you eventually get results. But sometimes shooting a panzer III at a Matilda is as satisfying as shooting a Sherman at a Tiger (and well it should be). But of course that is of little consolation to anyone playing the germans who often are the favourite team. An wise German player in France doesnt stray far from his 88 protection. Char B aint no thrill either. Early war German armour was only good because it was well led and using revolutionary battlefield doctines. If you go into Russia, you rapidly find it isnt over with the Matilda, those T-34's are a nasty surprise as well. As I see it, a Panzer III, was the early wars Sherman, nice reliable machine, undergunned against the odd brute and not enough armour to enjoy a slugging match. Drive your Panzer IIIs around all by themselves and you get some nasty surprises.



Jasper -> (7/12/2001 9:35:00 PM)

It is not called "Queen of the Field" for nothing in the desert war. It was heavily armoured and only 88 can take it out. In fact only upon the arrival of the German Afrika Corps with the 88 that make it phased out as a gun tank because it was slow. But it life was prolong into other usage and ot was alos the first tank to be equipped with the mine flai. It was used until 1944 when the left over the tank is not worth while to be maintained or rebuild :)



dfsrusa -> (7/12/2001 10:32:00 PM)

In "Stop that train" I simply ran from the Matilda's, their reputation having put the fear of God into me about them. I guess I was lucky that they didn't retake all my VOs, but since I had accomplished the main mission of destroying the train and ammo dumps I didn't mind. The next mission I hit the reinforcements in the flank. After picking off almost all of the British armor from the ridge I kept retreating out of the Matilda's LOS as it advanced on me, with basically my whole tank company taking shots at it as it lumbered forward. Finally I surrounded it with every tank, AC and 37 mm bearing halftrack I had and eventually destroyed it. I didn't think to count how many shots it took. In defending the highway I took out the Matilda's with engineers and infantry after they plowed into the village. It was standard German doctrine not to attack enemy armor with their armor when at all possible. The Matilda is really making the MC interesting. Scot Stephenson



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