[Answered] Fighters do not indetify contacts (Full Version)

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eleos -> [Answered] Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/19/2021 6:38:33 PM)

Fighters seem not to be able to intentify unknown contacts as enemy aircrafts until they are close to each other.
In the save attached there are only the sensors of the fighters and the suface radars for each side.
As far as I tested only AEW aircrafts are able to make indetification of unknown contacts in range of 150+ miles
Is it supposed to behave like that or there is a malfunction?



guanotwozero -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/20/2021 4:39:10 PM)

I suspect that's accurate, but I'm not sure. The RDY-2s in the Mirages are 1990s tech so likely have limited IFF abilities, and they don't carry any extra IFF gear. I can't find anything specific on the RDY-2's ID range (just a quick search), but it may be classified.

That's why fighters are best used in conjunction with AEW aircraft or other large radars that are better at long range identification. In a war context, it may be the case that all civilian traffic is warned off, so anything that's not yours is treated as hostile.



thewood1 -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/20/2021 5:02:15 PM)

I think some modern aircraft support NCTR to determine the type of aircraft. Page 302 in the manual discusses it. Otherwise, its visual. That includes long distance and IR optics.



Schr75 -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/20/2021 5:13:52 PM)

Hi eleos

This is WAD.
The radars on the fighters in your save file donīt have target recognition capabilities, only detection.
They can find the target, but canīt tell you what it is.
Try adding a plane with an AESA radar like a later model F/A-18E, F-16V or F-35, and turn on their radar.
They will instantly ID the targets because their radars have NCTR or Non Cooperative Target Recognition.

When ever you see the NCTR feature listed as a feature for a radar in the DB, the plane will be able to ID targets.
Perhaps not at maximum range, but at least at some range.

Hope this made sense.

Søren



BDukes -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/20/2021 5:36:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schr75

Hi eleos

This is WAD.
The radars on the fighters in your save file donīt have target recognition capabilities, only detection.
They can find the target, but canīt tell you what it is.
Try adding a plane with an AESA radar like a later model F/A-18E, F-16V or F-35, and turn on their radar.
They will instantly ID the targets because their radars have NCTR or Non Cooperative Target Recognition.

When ever you see the NCTR feature listed as a feature for a radar in the DB, the plane will be able to ID targets.
Perhaps not at maximum range, but at least at some range.

Hope this made sense.

Søren


Pretty cool level of modeling.

Mike



Schr75 -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/20/2021 5:59:20 PM)

quote:

Pretty cool level of modeling.

Mike


Yeah.

Really makes you appreciate modern sensors.
Especially after having played with cold war units for a while[:D]



eleos -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/20/2021 7:51:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schr75

Hi eleos

This is WAD.
The radars on the fighters in your save file donīt have target recognition capabilities, only detection.
They can find the target, but canīt tell you what it is.
Try adding a plane with an AESA radar like a later model F/A-18E, F-16V or F-35, and turn on their radar.
They will instantly ID the targets because their radars have NCTR or Non Cooperative Target Recognition.

When ever you see the NCTR feature listed as a feature for a radar in the DB, the plane will be able to ID targets.
Perhaps not at maximum range, but at least at some range.

Hope this made sense.

Søren


Hi Soren.
What you are saying make sense to me.
However it's a great difference in previous builds of CMO, where if I remember correct any aircraft could identify and clasify enemy contacts through its sensors
I know that every aircraft has its own IFF system, so isn't realistic the indentification to be done through that systems?

Kostas



thewood1 -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/20/2021 7:53:37 PM)

"However it's a great difference in previous builds of CMO, where if I remember correct any aircraft could identify and clasify enemy contacts through its sensors"

Its been like this for quite a while. You can search the change log to see when it was implemented.



eleos -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/20/2021 7:54:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero

I suspect that's accurate, but I'm not sure. The RDY-2s in the Mirages are 1990s tech so likely have limited IFF abilities, and they don't carry any extra IFF gear. I can't find anything specific on the RDY-2's ID range (just a quick search), but it may be classified.

That's why fighters are best used in conjunction with AEW aircraft or other large radars that are better at long range identification. In a war context, it may be the case that all civilian traffic is warned off, so anything that's not yours is treated as hostile.

I tried different aircraft though I didn't use the most modern ones because I had the impression that IFF devices in every aircraft help to the classification of unknown contacts.
Surely not indentifying the type of aircraft, but at least if it's enemy or friend.



guanotwozero -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/20/2021 9:13:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: eleos
I tried different aircraft though I didn't use the most modern ones because I had the impression that IFF devices in every aircraft help to the classification of unknown contacts.
Surely not indentifying the type of aircraft, but at least if it's enemy or friend.


IFF generally is good at identifying friendlies (assuming compatible equipment), but hostiles will clearly not be cooperative in this scheme. If you're in an environment of only friendlies and hostiles then you can tell the difference. But if there are likely to be neutrals, they don't carry compatible equipment so NCTR is important as it can (hopefully) tell the hostiles apart at long range. However that is more specialist equipment that's required and older, smaller aircraft tend to not have it.

Edit: As they guys above point out, an aircraft capable of NCTR will have that listed on its detail page. For example, look at the F-35's radar in the database.



Zanthra -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/21/2021 1:29:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eleos


quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero

I suspect that's accurate, but I'm not sure. The RDY-2s in the Mirages are 1990s tech so likely have limited IFF abilities, and they don't carry any extra IFF gear. I can't find anything specific on the RDY-2's ID range (just a quick search), but it may be classified.

That's why fighters are best used in conjunction with AEW aircraft or other large radars that are better at long range identification. In a war context, it may be the case that all civilian traffic is warned off, so anything that's not yours is treated as hostile.

I tried different aircraft though I didn't use the most modern ones because I had the impression that IFF devices in every aircraft help to the classification of unknown contacts.
Surely not indentifying the type of aircraft, but at least if it's enemy or friend.


If you are confident that any aircraft that is not friendly is hostile, you can set your RoE to free and allow units to fire on unknown or unfriendly contacts as well as hostile contacts.



stww2 -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/21/2021 4:59:34 AM)

You can also get IDs (or at least probable IDs) based off of the flight profiles of contacts. For example, most fighters in the game will cruise at 480 knots, loiter at 350 knots, and attack at 920 knots, Default flight altitude for most jets is 36,000 feet. It's not impossible for civilian aircraft to travel at the same speed and altitude as a military aircraft, but in my experience it is rare (although a really devious scenario designer could certainly exploit this). And of course, civilian aircraft will almost never travel in groups.

So if you see a pair of unidentified aircraft on radar fly to a point on the map at 480 knots and then slow to 350 knots and travel in some sort of patrol pattern you can be fairly certain those are enemy aircraft on patrol. Similarly, you can usually safely assume an unidentified aircraft zooming towards your patrols at 920 knots is an enemy fighter executing an attack and not a Boom Overture test flight.



guanotwozero -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/21/2021 1:24:33 PM)

Another thing is that IRL larger civilian aircraft carry transponders so they should be easily identifiable at a distance. The ones that don't are usually the smaller props who fly at ~200 kts anyway, so their flight profiles should identify them. Though it may be the case that some scenarios use such aircraft for observation, so you'd need to know the enemy's OOB.



Zanthra -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/21/2021 4:16:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero

Another thing is that IRL larger civilian aircraft carry transponders so they should be easily identifiable at a distance. The ones that don't are usually the smaller props who fly at ~200 kts anyway, so their flight profiles should identify them. Though it may be the case that some scenarios use such aircraft for observation, so you'd need to know the enemy's OOB.


All but the smallest ultralight aircraft carry transponders, and even those need to carry transponders if operating in certain altitudes or classes of airspace. Military aircraft carry them too, and they can operate in the same mode as civilian aircraft in order to operate with civilian ATC, although military aircraft during operations are going to have their transponders turned off (at least for the standard civilian modes).

Transponders don't inherently identify the aircraft. Usually an aircraft moving into controlled airspace will identify itself to the local Air Traffic Control, who will then associate that aircraft with their transponder code. All the secondary surveillance radar sees is when and where a transponder responded and what code it was responding with. The transponder on a 737 looks to the radar just like a transponder on a F-15.



guanotwozero -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/21/2021 4:41:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zanthra
Transponders don't inherently identify the aircraft...

Good point - it's a cooperative system no more indicative than IFF, so NCTR/profiling would still be needed for hostiles.



thewood1 -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/21/2021 6:56:26 PM)

My amateur understanding of IFF is it continues to have a lot of issues in operation. There have been incidents of friendly fire or near friendly fire in various Middle East no-fly zones due to issues with coordinating IFF channels and codes. I think at one point, IFF was abandoned as a capability and it made a comeback when the tech was worked out.



boogabooga -> RE: Fighters do not indetify contacts (4/22/2021 3:27:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: eleos


quote:

ORIGINAL: guanotwozero

I suspect that's accurate, but I'm not sure. The RDY-2s in the Mirages are 1990s tech so likely have limited IFF abilities, and they don't carry any extra IFF gear. I can't find anything specific on the RDY-2's ID range (just a quick search), but it may be classified.

That's why fighters are best used in conjunction with AEW aircraft or other large radars that are better at long range identification. In a war context, it may be the case that all civilian traffic is warned off, so anything that's not yours is treated as hostile.

I tried different aircraft though I didn't use the most modern ones because I had the impression that IFF devices in every aircraft help to the classification of unknown contacts.
Surely not indentifying the type of aircraft, but at least if it's enemy or friend.



I don't think IFF is modelled in CMP per se, but even so, I think the simulation is correct in its "Normal" awareness mode. From the Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe):

quote:


Despite the name, IFF can only positively identify friendly targets, not hostile ones.[1][2][3][4] If an IFF interrogation receives no reply or an invalid reply, the object cannot be identified as friendly, but is not positively identified as foe; it may, for instance, be a friendly aircraft with an inoperative or malfunctioning transponder.



Also, it is an option in the scenario editor to set a side to have an "auto side ID" awareness level. Auto side ID mode behaves similar to how you are describing, and you could very well have played scenarios in that mode in the past. But that will be a scenario-to-scenario difference and not CMO version-to-version. It's really up to the scenario designer.



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