Rail Capacity (Full Version)

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Medicusa -> Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 3:27:31 PM)

I wonder again and again how much rail capacity is used or ready in certain areas. Maybe I have overseen a tool for this but is there any way to show on the map how much rail capacity is used in an area except for clicking rail movement, count rail cap numbers and then count hexes and then multiply it with the amount that has moved there? This is the process I have to do right now for a logistical planning and it is very very bad.

My goal is a view that shows me on a glance where the logistical bottleneck is and this is most of the time the rail capacity for which I am missing any meaningful and easy to use overview. But maybe I have overseen it, cant imagen the most important tool for logistic is not in the game (yea I know :-))

Thanks
Chris



Medicusa -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 3:28:08 PM)

Also, if rail capacity is more or less trains and wagons, why the heck cant I MOVE them to another place :-)



Bamilus -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 4:20:38 PM)

There's 2 concepts: railyard capacity which is generated by railyards level 2+. These are basically the trains themselves, abstracted. Every rail hex can use/pull these trains from 30 hexes or 75MP (whatever is bigger) away. Then there's rail capacity, which is the capacity of the actual rail hexes themselves. Note that there's no hard cap to this, but a soft cap. i.e. you can theoretically jam as much as possible through a rail hex, provided there's enough railyard (train) capacity, but it's subject to increasingly large SMP penalties which eventually caps the number of freight as it no longer can make it to its destination in 200 SMP. I can't remember off top of my head what a single line capacity is but I know a single line is something like 40% of the dual line capacity.

To see railyard capacity, turn on the rail movement mode. You'll see a number under each applicable railyard which lists it's capacity.

To see rail capacity, I believe you can hover over rail hex in rail or logistics mode and it will display. I'm away from home so can't say for sure but it's one of those modes.

Hope this helps and I know it's not a perfect answer because the game can do a better job of providing logistics feedback, but it does a pretty good job overall.



Medicusa -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 4:40:39 PM)

I know this and it doesnt help the logistical problem. There is simply no way to see where the bottleneck is which is mostly the rail capacity.



Bamilus -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 4:42:25 PM)

Well the issue might not be a bottle neck. You can see if there's rail capacity penalties which can indicate a bottleneck. Or you can see if there's not enough railyard capacity around. I get what you're trying to ask but it's also impossible for the game to just give you an exact answer. And then you throw in the fact what your depot network looks like, what the weather is, and what your unit supply priorities are set to. I agree it's tough, but there's so many variables that you have to analyze them individually to see what's causing a problem (is it a push or pull issue)?

If you're playing Axis I can tell you first year the issue is almost never a bottleneck issue, but an SMP issue from the massive penalties Axis freight SMP gets (until April 42 or June 42, can't remember which). So freight not getting through is usually related to that, rather than a deficiency in railyard capacity or using too much rail capacity (unless you really borked up your railyard/rail hex repair strategy).



Medicusa -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 8:28:32 PM)

How du you see "rail capacity penalties"? I only know you can see the actual functional level but not how much is used. And how "Or you can see if there's not enough railyard capacity around"? That is my point, u cannot see this without counting hexes and multiply them with the transported use and subtract the capacity in 30 hexes range and even than u need to guess how far and from which city the 30 hex range counted.

And how do you know"Well the issue might not be a bottle neck"? If i cannot get the numbers I cannot say this. Only when railroad is full, which I never seen in 4 campaigns, you can be sure.



loki100 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 8:30:51 PM)

this thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4993098 discusses all this and explains what you see in terms of rail usage when you open your turn etc.

the system has a number of potential bottlenecks. On most of the map its not likely to be depot processing capacity (though it can be in specific situations), so you usually face a combination of a lack of railyard capacity and railway capacity -- usually they work together as the SMP cost rises then the demand for trains to move a given volume/distance does

quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

...

And how do you know"Well the issue might not be a bottle neck"? If i cannot get the numbers I cannot say this. Only when railroad is full, which I never seen in 4 campaigns, you can be sure.


what you see at the start of the turn is last turns usage (unit and freight)/6, so that is fairly misleading as to what the highest usage was in the logistics phase



Medicusa -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 8:41:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

this thread https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4993098 discusses all this and explains what you see in terms of rail usage when you open your turn etc.

the system has a number of potential bottlenecks. On most of the map its not likely to be depot processing capacity (though it can be in specific situations), so you usually face a combination of a lack of railyard capacity and railway capacity -- usually they work together as the SMP cost rises then the demand for trains to move a given volume/distance does

quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

...

And how do you know"Well the issue might not be a bottle neck"? If i cannot get the numbers I cannot say this. Only when railroad is full, which I never seen in 4 campaigns, you can be sure.


what you see at the start of the turn is last turns usage (unit and freight)/6, so that is fairly misleading as to what the highest usage was in the logistics phase


The thread doesnt answer my question unfortunately. Let me try again what I am looking for:
How can I see the rail capacity locally in order to identify a bottleneck? Like when you click N and you see a colored rail version and can easily identify if there is a bottleneck because of the rails. I feel without this information I am missing the most vital tool for a good logistical planning.



loki100 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 8:47:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa
...

The thread doesnt answer my question unfortunately. Let me try again what I am looking for:
How can I see the rail capacity locally in order to identify a bottleneck? Like when you click N and you see a colored rail version and can easily identify if there is a bottleneck because of the rails. I feel without this information I am missing the most vital tool for a good logistical planning.



the thread does, as does the manual. It tells you where railyard capacity comes from and why for a given hex you can't calculate this value



mikael333 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 8:56:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

what you see at the start of the turn is last turns usage (unit and freight)/6, so that is fairly misleading as to what the highest usage was in the logistics phase


This is the obvious place everybody will look at. So why does it show misleading information? Why not make a logistics phase rail usage view?



loki100 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 8:59:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikael333


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

what you see at the start of the turn is last turns usage (unit and freight)/6, so that is fairly misleading as to what the highest usage was in the logistics phase


This is the obvious place everybody will look at. So why does it show misleading information? Why not make a logistics phase rail usage view?


because its not misleading. What it shows is this turn's usage. That is made up of the legacy of last turn (usage/6) and anything you now do.



mikael333 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 9:57:25 PM)

That is maybe useful, if you want to rail units. Even then, how do I judge, how much freight I can burn on units and how much I should leave for logistics?
In any case while you may not rail units every turn, you will have logistics every turn. So a map mode showing the rail usage from last logistics phase is desirable I think,



Bamilus -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 10:04:12 PM)

But you can do that now. No point in knowing about last turn, you need to know what it is this turn to make decisions about railing this turn. And thats what it does. Itd be confusing if it showed last turn and I railed a unit this turn, which would then give no visible feedback on the capacity it used (like it does currently).



mikael333 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/21/2021 10:16:32 PM)

It shows last turn divided by 6. I understand that usage colors are not scaled accordingly? Or are they? Than I do not understan lokis remark.



carlkay58 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 12:06:25 AM)

I think that the best thing is mention that experience with the system will give you the feel of what is happening. The logistics system is an art - there are no numbers that will tell the story - you have to get a feel for the system and that will only come with experience.

There are certain rules that will improve your supply net.

1) Railyards > 1 are essential. The more you have connected to the supply net the better it will be. You had best protect them against Soviet air usage because they are prime targets. The larger the railyard the more protecting it will need.

2) Double lines are better than single lines. But two single lines connecting back and forth are better than one double line. But double and single lines with multiple routes are best.

3) Depot priorities and locations are a matter of taste. However supply flows best to higher priorities and better locations. So keep your level 4 priority depots in the front line and gradually reduce the priorities as the depots go to the rear. Remember the rule that a depot will only transfer supply to a higher level depot - not to the same level or lower.

4) Range - keep the range from the depot to the unit as short as possible. But also keep multiple depots to supply the units as that may come into play.

5) Keep track of your enemy's attacks on your supply lines. Whether it is by air (railyard bombing/interdiction), by sea (naval patrol), or by the obvious ground offensive. Also monitor Soviet partisans as the Axis. This is far more important in WitE2 than WitE1 or WitW.



Bamilus -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 12:10:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikael333

It shows last turn divided by 6. I understand that usage colors are not scaled accordingly? Or are they? Than I do not understan lokis remark.


You misunderstood him. There's an impact from rail usage that decays over time (the manual mentions it) and that is last turn's usage divided by 6. After that, everything it shows is current turn activity. So yes, it shows SOME of the carryover usage from before, but unless you're railing a ton of guys it's usually minimal. If I rail a Panzer division on a single line, it's going to turn red. Next turn, it will probably be yellow from the decay. But if I rail a unit again it will turn from yellow to red instantly. That's the visual feedback I'm talking about.



Medicusa -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 4:59:42 AM)

And again, the point is that there is no tool that gives you an overview to how much railyard capacity is locally used and therefore u cannot plan logistics. You can say it is ART but I would argue that every company in the world would fire you with that statement in the logistic department. Logistic is about numbers and not ART.



loki100 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 7:04:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikael333

That is maybe useful, if you want to rail units. Even then, how do I judge, how much freight I can burn on units and how much I should leave for logistics?
In any case while you may not rail units every turn, you will have logistics every turn. So a map mode showing the rail usage from last logistics phase is desirable I think,


ok, the order in which rail usage builds up is:

a) legacy usage from last turn (ie the total at the end of the logistics phase/6)
b) unit rail moves
c) logistic rail moves

a+b+c are then divided by 6 and it starts again.



loki100 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 7:07:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

And again, the point is that there is no tool that gives you an overview to how much railyard capacity is locally used and therefore u cannot plan logistics. You can say it is ART but I would argue that every company in the world would fire you with that statement in the logistic department. Logistic is about numbers and not ART.


you do plan logistics, you set depot priorities/HQ priorities, you make decisions about rail usage for non-logistic reasons.

The game doesn't have you ordering the movement of every wheel nut and shell casing. That follows the set routines around the areas where you have agency.

F2 tells you how much unused rail capacity (ie trains) is in a given railyard.

I think the fundamental problem is you seem to think you have control over part of the game that is not under your control (by design). But you have a lot of tools to influence the logistics system



Karri -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 3:41:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
you do plan logistics, you set depot priorities/HQ priorities, you make decisions about rail usage for non-logistic reasons.

The game doesn't have you ordering the movement of every wheel nut and shell casing. That follows the set routines around the areas where you have agency.

F2 tells you how much unused rail capacity (ie trains) is in a given railyard.

I think the fundamental problem is you seem to think you have control over part of the game that is not under your control (by design). But you have a lot of tools to influence the logistics system


I can see how much supply my depot got. Can I see how the supply got there? Can I see where the bottleneck was? Is there any information at all available that would help me understand how to improve the situation? The question to all is no. I don't need to control the railyard, but I do need to know what happens.



Bamilus -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 3:49:17 PM)

Actually you can see how it got there. If you hover over supply depot in logistics map mode (N) it tells you where the supply came from and how far away. You can see "bottlenecks" by using logistics map mode (N) at end of your turn and seeing where rail lines are yellow/red which indicates high SMP penalties. Lastly, using F2 (rail movement mode) you can see railyard capacity. So, the answer to everything you asked is actually "yes", not "no". And I use all of these details EVERY TURN to improve my situation.

Also, use the Supply tab in Unit CR and supply tab in Location CR. Look at unused vehicles in Depot's which indicates you have a higher supply priority than needed on a depot. There's also tons of other info on that and also you can look at Supply Details tab from Unit tab to see how much freight it got and if it didnt, why didn't it (not enough freight, not enough trucks, or admin failures).

Last thing I'll say: there is much to be desired in ways of presentation. I think the game for the most part gives you the majority of the info you need to make decisions, but much of it is spread over the place (CR, Logistics Map Mode, Rail Movement Map Mode, Turn Summary, Production Screen, Logistics Event Phase log). But, they've continued to make steps to improve this and it's greatly improved from WITE1 (minus a few things).

However, there's a difference between it being somewhat clunky to get the information versus the information not being there at all, which most of it is.



loki100 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 6:26:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Medicusa

And again, the point is that there is no tool that gives you an overview to how much railyard capacity is locally used ....


I keep on pointing you to the other thread as that explains why you can't see this (& actually that is meaningless from your pov). Now clearly that is not the answer you want as I think you want far more agency than the game gives you.

As in the earlier post, you get agency, but its via the HQ (demand) and depot (processing capacity systems).

I've just opened T13 of my HtH game so lets use the Ukraine as an example.

I have one dual track line running Lvov-Vinnitsa, it branches to Kiev and Kremenchug.

I am not moving many combat units so most of my usage is freight.

So exhibit a - rail usage before the split:

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1184/UA3yoE.jpg[/image]

as we'd expect, some of that usage then goes to Kiev and the rest moves east, so exhibit b - what moves east

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6430/efNyf7.jpg[/image]

So in effect I am moving around 20k of freight along that line (so at the end of the logistics phase a hefty SMP penalty).

Now where does the freight come from:

[image]https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5485/qogwqd.jpg[/image]

Now some comes from Brody - the reason is that is set up as an intermediate depot to hold freight that can't complete its journey (those SMP penalties) - see Carlkay's AAR for a first rate exposition of this point. A fair chunk comes direct from Berlin.

Where do the trains/rail capacity come from to move that. Well my best guess is Berlin=Berlin, Brody - a mix of Lvov and places like Katowice.

Am I getting enough to supply my forces, not really but then PG1 is a long way from Kirovgrad.

So I have tools - intermediate depots to catch freight that can't make the journey, a pattern of depots along the rail line, fiddling HQ demand to mean that PG1 remains mobile. What really is irrelevant to my decision making is where the capacity to move the freight comes from?

which leads us to:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Karri
..

I can see how much supply my depot got. Can I see how the supply got there? Can I see where the bottleneck was? Is there any information at all available that would help me understand how to improve the situation? The question to all is no. I don't need to control the railyard, but I do need to know what happens.


you can see where it came from, given the even spread of rail usage along the network, there is no particular delivery bottleneck (But I am running up a large SMP penalty). You do have (realistically) a global shortage of rail capacity. If I really wanted/needed to send more into the Ukraine well I need to lower demand further north.

Would I send combat units down that line. Well its not a great idea but at the end of the day, yes I would.



mikael333 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 6:56:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

quote:

ORIGINAL: mikael333

It shows last turn divided by 6. I understand that usage colors are not scaled accordingly? Or are they? Than I do not understan lokis remark.


You misunderstood him. There's an impact from rail usage that decays over time (the manual mentions it) and that is last turn's usage divided by 6. After that, everything it shows is current turn activity. So yes, it shows SOME of the carryover usage from before, but unless you're railing a ton of guys it's usually minimal. If I rail a Panzer division on a single line, it's going to turn red. Next turn, it will probably be yellow from the decay. But if I rail a unit again it will turn from yellow to red instantly. That's the visual feedback I'm talking about.


Ok, but this was exactly my point. I asked the question just to confirm it. What matters to plan logistics is the rail usage at the end of the last logistics phase and then maybe what share was from freight and what from units. You never get to see the usage from freight, so how should I even know, what I can burn on units.



loki100 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 7:01:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikael333

...

Ok, but this was exactly my point. I asked the question just to confirm it. What matters to plan logistics is the rail usage at the end of the last logistics phase and then maybe what share was from freight and what from units. You never get to see the usage from freight, so how should I even know, what I can burn on units.



look at the post above, it shows exactly what you asking and addresses the question of can you send units - not surprisingly the answer is ... 'it depends'



mikael333 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 7:34:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikael333

...

Ok, but this was exactly my point. I asked the question just to confirm it. What matters to plan logistics is the rail usage at the end of the last logistics phase and then maybe what share was from freight and what from units. You never get to see the usage from freight, so how should I even know, what I can burn on units.



look at the post above, it shows exactly what you asking and addresses the question of can you send units - not surprisingly the answer is ... 'it depends'


Ok, so you are saying I have to calculate 3661 times 6 in my head (slightly bigger than 20.000) and then know, that this is already well in the orange with SMP+4. I see, that is some practical advice.
As a "casual" gamer I would prefer to see the orange though.





speedyglides -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 9:03:24 PM)

quote:

So in effect I am moving around 20k of freight along that line (so at the end of the logistics phase a hefty SMP penalty).


Sorry, I got somewhat confused: where that number come from? I thought 3661 rail usage is moving 3661 tons not k tons. Or is it another relationship with the Axis Rail Usage then?



loki100 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 9:04:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikael333

...

Ok, so you are saying I have to calculate 3661 times 6 in my head (slightly bigger than 20.000) and then know, that this is already well in the orange with SMP+4. I see, that is some practical advice.
As a "casual" gamer I would prefer to see the orange though.



I'm not really. If you want to know what it will cost you to move a combat unit then its 1 SMP per hex plus the extra cost of current usage in that hex (see 38.7.7 for this).

Where does this usage come from? Well its the residual usage from last turn (the /6) and whatever you have done this turn. Thus the map display shows what the cost will be to move a unit. If you are trying to keep total usage below a threshold (ie guessing ahead to what the next logistics phase will do),then yes do the calculation you mention. But I've been testing and playing WiTE2 for almost 5 years and have never even thought about doing it that way.

Now there quite simply is no rule for how to interact unit moves with logistical moves. It is so conditional. How important is that unit to you? If it marches will it shed so much in damage/fatigue that it is better to use the rails?

Only you as the player can judge that trade off.

Final bit, there is no cap to rail movement in a hex. In theory it can be limitless, just the SMP cost escalates to the stage where the units/freight don't move very far and you can't move much as you have claimed all the rail cap available.



loki100 -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 9:07:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: speedyglides

quote:

So in effect I am moving around 20k of freight along that line (so at the end of the logistics phase a hefty SMP penalty).


Sorry, I got somewhat confused: where that number come from? I thought 3661 rail usage is moving 3661 tons not k tons. Or is it another relationship with the Axis Rail Usage then?


residual rail usage is the final amount last turn/6. So if my residual usage is 3,600 roughly the total at the end of last turn was around 20k



speedyglides -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/22/2021 9:13:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: speedyglides

quote:

So in effect I am moving around 20k of freight along that line (so at the end of the logistics phase a hefty SMP penalty).


Sorry, I got somewhat confused: where that number come from? I thought 3661 rail usage is moving 3661 tons not k tons. Or is it another relationship with the Axis Rail Usage then?


residual rail usage is the final amount last turn/6. So if my residual usage is 3,600 roughly the total at the end of last turn was around 20k


Oook. Cristal clear now. Thanks.



Hanny -> RE: Rail Capacity (4/23/2021 8:39:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


Now some comes from Brody - the reason is that is set up as an intermediate depot to hold freight that can't complete its journey (those SMP penalties) - see Carlkay's AAR for a first rate exposition of this point. A fair chunk comes direct from Berlin.

Where do the trains/rail capacity come from to move that. Well my best guess is Berlin=Berlin, Brody - a mix of Lvov and places like Katowice.

Am I getting enough to supply my forces, not really but then PG1 is a long way from Kirovgrad.



In a 2 day period, 13 450t trains delivered 5319t to kiev, Kiev was operating at 8% of its capacity so what is not enough now can be vastly increased. Historically 70 trains a day was delivered, so Kiev in game is getting 10% or so of historical freight delivered to the East, its freight max capacity is 133 train deliveries, so if maxed out it can supply each day 28 Div to 300 t.



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