RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (Full Version)

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RobWorham -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 12:45:13 AM)

Thanks for the info carlkay58 and the great AAR jlbhung.

I'm falling in love with this game, after skimming off WitE and WitW. There's so much to learn but as long as I make a little bit of progress each day then I'm as happy as the proverbial pig. Great to pick up these little tips like the 109 production and prioritising level 2 air bases to reduce ops losses and flight cancellations!

Looking forward to the next update...[:)]



neuromancer -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 1:09:23 AM)

So it's not just me then. Well, I guess that is good to know. [:'(]

No production for four weeks? Now that is some bad timing.



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 1:56:26 AM)

Turn 8

Weather finally became clear.

Four VP locations (Dno, Staraya Russa, Novgorod and Luga) were taken in one go in a breakthrough.

[For those new to the game: to make a breakthrough, I often started my attacks with infantry in front to make an opening. The more infantry available for the initial assaults the better. After exhausting the infantry, the motorized units will then follow up to exploit further, in the meantime trying to keep a three hexes wide corridor if possible (if not, then a continuous line of relatively strong units)]


[image]local://upfiles/78787/5C5EFBF74C5E41BFB5EEF2F921272A4E.jpg[/image]



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 2:00:00 AM)

Turn 8 Air Combats

Air combats were intense. After three turns of raining, pilots from both sides eagerly engaged each other when the weather became clear.

Most of the air combats were seen in the Axis action phase, suggesting that the Soviets were intercepting actively against Axis ground support missions. The vast majority of air losses were Soviet fighters and fighter-bombers.

Planes lost on the ground were likely be damaged planes destroyed when their airbases were overrun by the advancing Axis units.

[While I only got beginning of turn autosaves, it was lucky that Turn 8 air combat data in Axis Phases was still available at the beginning of Turn 9. It appeared that air combat data in Axis Air and Action Phases in the past turn was cleared only after the execution of the current Axis Air Phase.]



[image]local://upfiles/78787/198A4E927AF84B149603EB3308B26AFE.jpg[/image]



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 2:01:38 AM)

I think the locations of JG53 and JG54, which were close to the major area of actions, might have facilitated the provision of effective escorts to ground support missions.

[image]local://upfiles/78787/7A859E8E3559408981A06F763B1458CE.jpg[/image]



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 2:21:39 AM)

Army Command Capacity

More and more infantry divisions under the 16 Army had been breaking down to regiments with the lengthening of the frontline as the game proceeded. The load on command capacity of HQs by an infantry division was 2 and would increase to 3 if broken down to 3 regiments. In the course of Turn 8, the command capacity of the 16 Army approached its limit (the load became 26 out of 27). To increase the Army’s command capacity, I turned it to an Assault HQ. Apart from the increased capacity, I would also benefit from the increased rate of CPP gain for units under Assault HQ. This cost 10 AP.

[the screenshots were as at start of Turn 8 and Turn 9 respectively]



[image]local://upfiles/78787/AF344BF648BD43E3A23D1BD60E38141D.jpg[/image]



neuromancer -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 4:43:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlbhung

Four VP locations (Dno, Staraya Russa, Novgorod and Luga) were taken in one go in a breakthrough.


WOAH! Nice breakthrough!
[sm=Tank-fahr09.gif]

You must have broken down a lot of those divisions into regiments for that kind of coverage, yes? Not just the infantry in A16, but the panzers and motorboyz of PG4.



RobWorham -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 5:35:07 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlbhung

Turn 8
Four VP locations (Dno, Staraya Russa, Novgorod and Luga) were taken in one go in a breakthrough.


How many APs do you have? Am I right in saying that it costs APs to build your regiments back up into divisions (I think I read that somewhere)? Do you think you've got enough punching power with all those regiments, rather than divisions, if you keep them as regiments?



loki100 -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 7:43:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RobWorham
...

How many APs do you have? Am I right in saying that it costs APs to build your regiments back up into divisions ....



no, that is free



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 7:50:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobWorham

How many APs do you have? Am I right in saying that it costs APs to build your regiments back up into divisions (I think I read that somewhere)? Do you think you've got enough punching power with all those regiments, rather than divisions, if you keep them as regiments?



Breakdown and re-building existing divisions do not cost APs. I think you may be referring to the situation where a Soviet Tank Corps does not previously exist and you build up a new one using tank brigades. Even in such case no APs are required if you later break it down and re-build it.

RobWorham, you are right. Regiment usually does not have a lot of punching power. In fact, many of the attacks done by motorized units in a breakthrough were hasty ones. So usually a division was required. Sometimes if I am uncertain, I stacked two divisions together for a hasty attack. Divisions were broken down largely in the latter half or near the end of their journey in order to cover more ground. Novgorod was a special case where I was not certain whether I could take it with a hasty attack, but did not have sufficient movement points left to carry out a deliberate attack and advance. So I broke down the 6th Panzer Division and launched a deliberate attack with 2 regiments. The remaining regiment could advance afterwards if the attack was succeed. In WitE1, some players may prefer hasty attack twice if the first one was unsuccessful, but with the introduction of CPP in WitE2 double hasty attack appears to be less appealing.




jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 7:53:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

You must have broken down a lot of those divisions into regiments for that kind of coverage, yes? Not just the infantry in A16, but the panzers and motorboyz of PG4.



Yes, all the six panzer and motorized divisions I had on hand were broken down for the coverage. The regiments were recombined to divisions later when the infantry moved up to cover the newly acquired ground.



briklebritt -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 9:22:35 AM)

Hi, I also playing this scenario now for the second time and I am new to the game. I won my first Leningrad try, but played at easy without FOW. Now my second try is much more difficult with FOW and movement fog. But please let me ask some questions to improve my skills:

- Have you flown naval operations on any ports till now?
- Will you fly naval ops to ensure supply through captured ports?
- Are your recon planes doing recon mission every turn?
- Why not setting inf armies to assault at the beginning of turn 1? Are there any disadvantages?
- Would it be a good idea not to fly ground support only for the panzers but also fly ground support for inf armies?
- When getting new AOGs through reserve box in this scenario, I could only bring two AOGs to the map in my last try to play this scenario. Which values did limit it? Is it possible to bring all AOGs in reserve box to map? I saw you put a second JG AOG to the map.

Thx :-)



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 11:25:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: briklebritt

Hi, I also playing this scenario now for the second time and I am new to the game. I won my first Leningrad try, but played at easy without FOW. Now my second try is much more difficult with FOW and movement fog. But please let me ask some questions to improve my skills:

(a) - Have you flown naval operations on any ports till now?
(b) - Will you fly naval ops to ensure supply through captured ports?
(c) - Are your recon planes doing recon mission every turn?
(d) - Why not setting inf armies to assault at the beginning of turn 1? Are there any disadvantages?
(e) - Would it be a good idea not to fly ground support only for the panzers but also fly ground support for inf armies?
(f) - When getting new AOGs through reserve box in this scenario, I could only bring two AOGs to the map in my last try to play this scenario. Which values did limit it? Is it possible to bring all AOGs in reserve box to map? I saw you put a second JG AOG to the map.

Thx :-)



Hi briklebritt, on your questions (I numbered the questions in the quote) -

(a) & (b) Upto Turn 8, no. One reason is that I am not too familiar with the air war part of WitE2. Another reason is that so far the need did not arise for me. To give some suspense (not sure if this is the proper word), I am not telling you now whether I used in later turns [:D] .

(c) Every turn initially. I personally do not like to see a lot of loss. So I only do recon in areas where I plan to have major operation, usually a mission was about 3x3 or 5x5 hex, 2 days a week, and try my best to fly with escorts. In later turns where I only managed to advance one or a few hexes a turn and when the weather was always raining, I launch relatively fewer recon flights because I already got info about the enemy units in touch with my units in the frontline.

(d) I did not have the 10 AP at the beginning. Later when I got the AP, I forgot to do so until the 16A was approaching its command capacity limit.

(e) I set the ground support (GS) to cover the whole AGN, and then use "X" to turn the GS on and off where appropriate . My plan was to use GS when the battle was critical to me (at least this is the intention, though I sometimes found that I forgot to toggle the GS on/off). Lastly, if I felt uncomfortable about the level of loss suffered by GS flights, then I reduced the frequency I turn GS on.

(f) I did not have problem with bringing in AOG so far, definitely more than two from Reserve.

Hope that my reply helps you.




neuromancer -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 8:23:30 PM)

jlbhung, how do you manage your CPP?

I find that most of my units are at 0 by around turn 4. Just the pace of moving across the map to capture territory, to say nothing of combat, seems to use up all my CPP. The CPP economy seems to be a crucial factor in success with the Germans, but I have yet to figure out how to manage it. I had tried letting my infantry sit to replenish and moving relatively slowly so as to not burn it up, but quickly realized that I'd get absolutely nowhere doing that.



loki100 -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 8:31:23 PM)

2 useful tricks.

put at least one. maybe 2 inf corps into PG4. On T2 they will pick up assault status (they don't the turn of transfer but that doesn't matter on t1 as the axis have 0 SMP). Never move these into a pending hex, always stop in an axis hex (ie one you held last turn) and with say 2-3 MP left.

Oddly that will give you more MP (the CPP bonus) & keep up your CPP. That should deliver those formations to the inevitable Luga battles with 80+ CPP.

When you attack with them, only attack once and try not to move them. But if you need retreat a hex to get out of ZoC (replace them obviously). Your 80 CPP unit will dip to 40 (the attack penalty) and then gain 25 (assault status, 100 SMP, out of ZoC), so they are now 65. Still pretty good, attack and repeat, they'll go down to say 50 (-37+25=53). Still good for a third turn.

That should eat into the Luga line. Now let them have a good rest and they will be ready for the final battles.

All of course easier to say than do.



neuromancer -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 9:13:33 PM)

So you're saying only worry about the infantry corps (singular or plural - I currently have one) that is backing up the panzers and motorboyz? The rest of them... well, do the best you can with them?



loki100 -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/26/2021 10:04:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

So you're saying only worry about the infantry corps (singular or plural - I currently have one) that is backing up the panzers and motorboyz? The rest of them... well, do the best you can with them?



pragmatically yes.

A non-assualt unit can gain 16 CPP per turn max (off 200 SMP), so you should still aim to stop in friendly hex, keep a few MP back etc (not just for CPP regain but also shedding fatigue), but to be honest its marginal.

a unit in an assault command can gain 50 CPP per turn, 25 if you have 100 SMP etc. That becomes worth managing and trying to maximise.



neuromancer -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/27/2021 4:36:47 AM)

Cool. [8D]
Thanks!

BTW, and just FYI, Loki, I quoted what you said earlier in the CPP Economy thread in the War Room forum.



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/27/2021 5:07:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

jlbhung, how do you manage your CPP?

I find that most of my units are at 0 by around turn 4. Just the pace of moving across the map to capture territory, to say nothing of combat, seems to use up all my CPP. The CPP economy seems to be a crucial factor in success with the Germans, but I have yet to figure out how to manage it. I had tried letting my infantry sit to replenish and moving relatively slowly so as to not burn it up, but quickly realized that I'd get absolutely nowhere doing that.



Hi neuromancer,

I saw your thread in the War Room and read a lot of expert discussions there. Actually I faced the same struggle in gaining CPP. The infantry units were always marching hard to catch up. I noticed that in most of the time roughly 3/4 or more of my infantry units had CPP of lower than 30. The remaining were unfortunately most likely be those guarding flanks in quiet areas.

As to the motorized units, I usually let them take a rest every few turns. My observation is that often the chance to rest and recoup CPP comes naturally – waiting for infantry to catch up, waiting for infantry to get into position for a major assault, waiting for infantry to fill in the newly occupied area gained from breakthrough etc. Some illustrations from earlier turns of this AAR –

(a) In Turn 4, the 56 Motorized Corps on the right hand side of the screenshot was resting because I would like to wait for the 16 Army to catch up. Actually the progress was insignificant in that direction since Turn 2;

(b) In Turn 5, the 41 Motorized Corps near Tallinn rested. There was bad weather and I had to wait for my infantry to advance northward anyway; and

(c) While the 56 Motorized Corps crossed the Sorot River on Turn 5, it had little activity in Turn 6. In the meantime, Infantry moved forward to take up the frontline and positioned themselves to prepare for the next breakthrough. Because I did not want to commit my motorized units in the rain in Turn 7, they gained one more turn of rest. Meanwhile, more infantry moved to the frontline and this also contributed to the successful breakthrough in Turn 8.

Separately, though not directly related to CPP, I use the commander report to monitor the fatigue level of my units nearly every turn. I will mark units starting the turn with high fatigue level and try not to use them too harsh in the turn. [I use the fatigue level of 40 as a benchmark, but it is more a personal preference without any "scientific" basis. I set these units to refit at start of a Turn and change their status back at the end of turn, so that only units truely need to be on refit will be correctly marked for the computer’s end/start of turn logistics.]




jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/27/2021 5:10:03 AM)

Turn 9

1. Two new units, the 20 Motorized Division and the 12 Panzer Division arrived as reinforcement from the South.

2. While infantry units were moving forward to consolidate the breakthrough, the two Motorized Corps took the opportunity to rest and re-organize so that each Corps commanded 2 panzer and 2 motorized divisions. My plan was that the two Motorized Corps would lead the advance to the North along two routes towards the remaining VP targets I set when I started this scenario.

3. Two small pockets were formed in the vicinity of Pskov by using infantry.




[image]local://upfiles/78787/BDF939E55F84468383D6D1D780AB02BC.jpg[/image]



Hardradi -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/27/2021 8:11:11 AM)

That looks like a long rough route on the right, fingers crossed.

Have you got any screens for ground unit losses in T9?



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/27/2021 9:06:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Have you got any screens for ground unit losses in T9?


I only started to keep end of turn save from Turn 10. The screenshot shown was obtained from the autosave as at start of Turn 10. Since it is at the start of turn before any player actions were taken, I guess that the turn ground loss figure would be composed of the following -
(a) Turn 9 Axis Air Phase;
(b) Turn 9 Axis Action Phase;
(c) all Turn 9 Soviet phases;
(d) Turn 10 Axis Logistic Phase

Is that what you are looking for? Just curious why are you interested in the loss of this particular turn. I see nothing special.

[image]local://upfiles/78787/97A354DE6D2145139CC967D7D26EA5FA.jpg[/image]



Hardradi -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/27/2021 12:11:19 PM)

Thanks, just wanted to compare to my current Axis game.

Can you autosave a Matrix Server game?



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/27/2021 1:10:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Thanks, just wanted to compare to my current Axis game.

Can you autosave a Matrix Server game?


No idea. I don't play MP game.



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/28/2021 3:03:30 AM)

Turn 10

Hardradi pointed out that my right hand route looked like a long rough route. I also hesitated when I played this turn. I was also concerned about the higher chance for raining in the remaining turns. The viability of this route was very uncertain.

It was at that time that I searched this forum for AARs to see if I can draw reference from fellow players’ experience. Unfortunately I did not find an AAR showing the later stage of this scenario at the time of my searching. The idea that may be I could write an AAR for sharing after I completed this game came up. Hence this AAR.

1. Eventually I decided to change my mind, formulated a revised plan and repositioned my Motorized Corps. Unavoidably there was a delay, but on the positive side I could use the time to move some infantry of the 16 Army to the North.

2. JG54(fighters) and StG2(tactical bombers) based in the level 2 airbases at Soltsy and Dno were well positioned to provide close support to the attack towards north.

3. Responsibility to take the VP location Valdai now fell on 16 Army.

4. Pskov finally taken. As mentioned in my earlier end note for Turn 3, if I was aggressive and brave enough, a possible alternative would be to take Pskov on Turn 3.

5. I saw the potential of a small pocket west of Narva.

I started to keep end of turn saves this turn. The screenshot below shows position as at end of Turn 10. Newly occupied hexes could now be seen (those darkened hexes) -


[image]local://upfiles/78787/54D90781A62E4046AA1C4B28205602DE.jpg[/image]



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/28/2021 3:07:41 AM)

Stukas

I found that the Stukas were brittle. I bought two Stuka air groups to the map from the Reserve on Turn 8. After active actions mostly in Turn 9 and 10, they suffered a total loss of 23 planes and their Morale dropped to the level of around 30-40. I had to put them to rest at the end of Turn 10. As the Axis controlled the air, I thought most of the loss was flak and operational loss.

I had to bring the other two TAC air groups previously kept as reserve to the map (under the StG2 AOG - the two air groups with Trvl shown as 100 in the screenshot).




[image]local://upfiles/78787/9E8FC939C25B4DE29D1C0ABE3D3031E6.jpg[/image]



loki100 -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/28/2021 7:57:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlbhung

Stukas

I found that the Stukas were brittle. I bought two Stuka air groups to the map from the Reserve on Turn 8. After active actions mostly in Turn 9 and 10, they suffered a total loss of 23 planes and their Morale dropped to the level of around 30-40. I had to put them to rest at the end of Turn 10. As the Axis controlled the air, I thought most of the loss was flak and operational loss.

I had to bring the other two TAC air groups previously kept as reserve to the map (under the StG2 AOG - the two air groups with Trvl shown as 100 in the screenshot).

...


yep - brutally so, but also very powerful. Not helped as the 87B goes out of production early on and the 87D doesn't come into use till October.

their other real bonus is they are relatively resource-light in their demands so you can get them close to the front, but I don't think you can do much to avoid the use=die relationship.



Hardradi -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/28/2021 9:32:32 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

Thanks, just wanted to compare to my current Axis game.

Can you autosave a Matrix Server game?


With regards to the manpower losses, I am playing two games, one as Germans and one as Soviets against a human.

1) Playing as Germans T10 they Soviets have 663k in manpower losses.
2) Playing as Soviets T10 I have 501k in manpower losses.

These are both quite a bit higher than your game versus the AI which might have something to do with its 'ability' to reform its lines.


I like the look of the revised plan. By T10 all my recon is blown and JG54 became ineffective by around T5/6. I cant seem to get any Bf 109F-2 replacements. I was very happy when JG 27 arrived and have been using it cautiously. How are your railways looking?



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/28/2021 10:12:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

With regards to the manpower losses, I am playing two games, one as Germans and one as Soviets against a human.

1) Playing as Germans T10 they Soviets have 663k in manpower losses.
2) Playing as Soviets T10 I have 501k in manpower losses.

These are both quite a bit higher than your game versus the AI which might have something to do with its 'ability' to reform its lines.



I think it may not be due to AI, but the different approaches of German strategy. In my first run vs AI by which I suffered a minor loss as Axis, I paid more attention to forming large pockets and destroying Soviet units. I still kept the last turn save and you can infer the loss from the metrics (Axis loss = VP x 200, Soviet loss = VP x 1000). By Turn 10 Soviet loss was 531k. In this AAR which was my second run vs AI, I did not attempt to form big pockets after Turn 2 and sometimes let the Soviet AI retreat. I hope that in this way I need not spend too much time clearing the pockets.



[image]local://upfiles/78787/39341E5A43274FEFA23E5B0B15B776A2.jpg[/image]



jlbhung -> RE: Road to Leningrad AAR – Playing as Axis (4/28/2021 10:53:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hardradi

...... How are your railways looking?


As requested, the railways as at end Turn 10 - [Edit - screenshot replaced as the earlier one seems to have some color problem]



[image]local://upfiles/78787/C09466165FE54F1F9734339838FA1501.jpg[/image]



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