CPP Economy (Full Version)

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neuromancer -> CPP Economy (4/26/2021 8:45:22 PM)

So it's been said by multiple people on here that CPP management is crucial to success with the Axis - especially the Germans. And I can believe it, your CV is reduced by half without any CPP, and I believe the odds of getting corps level support is significantly reduced without any.

But... how do you keep those CPP values up?

I'm using the Road to Leningrad scenario as a primary training exercise to learn what needs to be done (4th try I think), and while I've been learning a lot (still working on the Air War, but I've made progress) one of the greatest conflicts I've run into is the necessary speed of the German advance versus maintaining CPP.

By turn 4 or 5 I had reached the Pskov line, had captured both the Axis and Soviet VP cities below that line, isolated and destroyed a bunch of Soviet units with only a few left to mop up and would have most or all of my infantry in place by turn 5 or 6. But having moved across the a third of the map, most units had no CPP to speak of, so my CV on many units was rather depleted.

I've been given tips about not advancing units into captured territory after a unit attacks so it can replenish CPP, and using one set of units to make the hole while another set that didn't attack advances. This makes sense as the unit that attacks sits in friendly territory - preferably not next to an enemy unit - and replenishes CPP, also hopefully while on Assault to increase recovery speed. But in practice I find that I don't really have enough infantry to do that and still keep some semblance of a line - and deal with the Soviet units that love to dash between those units in an attempt to encircle my infantry - and advance at any kind of reasonable pace. And my panzerkorps move around so much - that is kinda the point of a high MP unit - that they quickly burn off their CPP as well, and to replenish it takes a couple turns of just sitting in one spot, which with the time crunch of only 16 turns to at least encircle Leningrad makes me very nervous to have all my high MP units sitting on their thumbs.

I feel that I must still be missing something here, and I think this is an important topic for people new to the game, so figured I'd start this topic and see if the vets can perhaps explain it to us n00bs.



neuromancer -> RE: CPP Economy (4/26/2021 9:19:19 PM)

I'm going to repost this from a current Road to Leningrad AAR.
Hopefully saves Loki from having to repeat himself. [:'(]

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
2 useful tricks.

put at least one. maybe 2 inf corps into PG4. On T2 they will pick up assault status (they don't the turn of transfer but that doesn't matter on t1 as the axis have 0 SMP). Never move these into a pending hex, always stop in an axis hex (ie one you held last turn) and with say 2-3 MP left.

Oddly that will give you more MP (the CPP bonus) & keep up your CPP. That should deliver those formations to the inevitable Luga battles with 80+ CPP.

When you attack with them, only attack once and try not to move them. But if you need retreat a hex to get out of ZoC (replace them obviously). Your 80 CPP unit will dip to 40 (the attack penalty) and then gain 25 (assault status, 100 SMP, out of ZoC), so they are now 65. Still pretty good, attack and repeat, they'll go down to say 50 (-37+25=53). Still good for a third turn.

That should eat into the Luga line. Now let them have a good rest and they will be ready for the final battles.

All of course easier to say than do.


If I understand this correctly, he is saying that the infantry you worry about are the ones assigned to panzerkorps. For the rest of the infantry, just do the best you can, but their primary purpose is to hold territory, and fight where they can.

Correct me if I'm wrong on that.



Bamilus -> RE: CPP Economy (4/26/2021 9:47:19 PM)

A few ways:

1. Assault HQs are super important. You can have 6 total and Axis start with 4, the PGs. I usually make 11th Army and 4th Army assault, as well, but depends your objectives. Assault status also increases command capacity, so you can add infantry from other Armies so more infantry can get the assault HQ CPP regen bonus.
2. CPP is actually a CV bonus. At 0 it gives no bonus. Just thought Id clarify this.
3. Prioritize your attacks. Every attack halves CPP, regardless the type of attack, outcome, or opponent. So be more cautious about who and how you attack. You can bypass a lot of Soviets, you dont need to attack them all every turn.

Theres other stuff, but you're never going to have a ton of high CPP units as Axis until winter. The constant closing of pockets and advancing will guarantee this. Im not big on keeping units static to regain CPP in 1941 as Axis, unless they need to refit. You need to keep moving to prevent Soviets from fortifying in good terrain. I wouldn't worry so much about it as long as you're mindful of the above.

EDIT: to your second point, yes. I usually move infantry division's to an all infantry corps within the PGs. That way you can keep the corps HQ near them. The ones that start with the motorized corps will get left behind so its best to keep your motorized and non motorized units split



GloriousRuse -> RE: CPP Economy (4/26/2021 10:35:42 PM)

Other than rotation and rest:

1) Assault HQs gain at double the rate.
2) Units co-located with their HQ double. So co-located on an HQ in assault status is basically a 4x multiplier.
3) Units ending in friendly territory not adjacent to enemy forces or turf are at max recovery.

Between these it is possible to recover up to 50 CPP in one week. If you already need to refit and regas a unit you’re probably doing it on a railhead co-located with an HQ anyhow...so a judiciously timed operational pause can see a unit not only recover a lot of CPP, but filter in new combat power and build up the logistics to sustain a new drive without crashing the CV for supply reasons. Honestly the short well executed pause can bring a lot of power back into a formation.

Failing that, besides the obvious not fighting everyone everywhere all the time, consider your movement. You don’t need to march every unit as far forward as possible every turn. Moving into enemy or just captured territory burns both MP and CV, and ending there penalizes recovery. Admin moves over even poor roads in friendly territory can catch you right back up to the front for a token cost until bad weather comes. So when you think about pushing forward, what, four hexes with infantry on, consider that this will tank your MP, CPP, and CPP recovery...whereas stopping short will probably mean a 4-6 MP bill next turn, but will actually leave you gaining CPP. And if you made contact, you can advance out of the depths, break the line with those units, and send the front line units through for greater gains and to break the second and third defensive lines.



Bamilus -> RE: CPP Economy (4/26/2021 11:05:36 PM)

What do you mean by co-located? I dont see in manual where it states sharing a hex with an HQ doubles CPP gain.

EDIT: cant find anything about HQ doubling other than the 2x assault. Not seeing how you get to 4x but would appreciate the insight.



GloriousRuse -> RE: CPP Economy (4/27/2021 1:02:06 AM)

Sharing a hex. So if the unit is in Assault status, the recovery rate is doubled. if it's also sharing a hex with the HQ it belongs to, it doubles again. Either one would be 2x, between them that becomes 4x.



Bamilus -> RE: CPP Economy (4/27/2021 2:29:09 AM)

I just cant find that anywhere in the manual but Ill take your word for it



neuromancer -> RE: CPP Economy (4/27/2021 4:34:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse
Failing that, besides the obvious not fighting everyone everywhere all the time, consider your movement. You don’t need to march every unit as far forward as possible every turn. Moving into enemy or just captured territory burns both MP and CV, and ending there penalizes recovery. Admin moves over even poor roads in friendly territory can catch you right back up to the front for a token cost until bad weather comes. So when you think about pushing forward, what, four hexes with infantry on, consider that this will tank your MP, CPP, and CPP recovery...whereas stopping short will probably mean a 4-6 MP bill next turn, but will actually leave you gaining CPP. And if you made contact, you can advance out of the depths, break the line with those units, and send the front line units through for greater gains and to break the second and third defensive lines.


This is interesting and probably one of the things I need to consider the most. To paraphrase Sun Tzu, fight only when you need to. And apparently move as well. So while some units have to move to grab territory, and some have to mop up those isolated guys, perhaps not every unit has to be actively involved in that.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus
1. Assault HQs are super important. You can have 6 total and Axis start with 4, the PGs. I usually make 11th Army and 4th Army assault, as well, but depends your objectives. Assault status also increases command capacity, so you can add infantry from other Armies so more infantry can get the assault HQ CPP regen bonus.


Ah, I was wondering why you wouldn't just make every army an assault command - as points allow - but if you are limited to only 6, that would limit the option. So you have to deactivate one if you want someone else to be an assault army and already have six. Was meaning to look up the catch on that.

quote:


2. CPP is actually a CV bonus. At 0 it gives no bonus. Just thought Id clarify this.


Yes, I said that poorly. +CPP as a percentage, so 0 CPP is +0%, 50 CPP is +50%, and 100 CPP is +100%.

quote:


3. Prioritize your attacks. Every attack halves CPP, regardless the type of attack, outcome, or opponent. So be more cautious about who and how you attack. You can bypass a lot of Soviets, you dont need to attack them all every turn.


Indeed, so attacking randomly up and down the line is less useful than it sounds. Good to know.
Sounds like detailing a sacrificial corps or two to mop up isolated units - and security detachments - is probably the way to go at the beginning, and not use all of an army to do it.

quote:


Theres other stuff, but you're never going to have a ton of high CPP units as Axis until winter. The constant closing of pockets and advancing will guarantee this. Im not big on keeping units static to regain CPP in 1941 as Axis, unless they need to refit. You need to keep moving to prevent Soviets from fortifying in good terrain. I wouldn't worry so much about it as long as you're mindful of the above.


That makes sense, and fits what I was going towards, but with the revisions of the previous points.

quote:


EDIT: to your second point, yes. I usually move infantry division's to an all infantry corps within the PGs. That way you can keep the corps HQ near them. The ones that start with the motorized corps will get left behind so its best to keep your motorized and non motorized units split


I was doing that, but it was more my low level OCD thinking that having them in the same corps as the high MP units was silly. [:)]



Jango32 -> RE: CPP Economy (4/27/2021 7:13:37 AM)

There is another way to preserve CPP, especially on turn 1 as the Axis. If you find yourself facing Soviet units you can just brush aside (like those static MG units or NKVD border forces), split up a division into regiments and attack with one of the regiments. Once it's cleared, merge them and you now have 83 remaining CPP instead of 50 for the division as a whole.



loki100 -> RE: CPP Economy (4/27/2021 7:54:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GloriousRuse

Other than rotation and rest:

1) Assault HQs gain at double the rate.
2) Units co-located with their HQ double. So co-located on an HQ in assault status is basically a 4x multiplier.
3) Units ending in friendly territory not adjacent to enemy forces or turf are at max recovery.

...


not sure about (b)?

Not only has it escaped documentation (which has been known to happen [8D]) it would also imply a unit could gain 100 CPP per turn, since a unit in an assault command can reach 50 by the rules as written - 200/12 * 3 - in the best case example



carlkay58 -> RE: CPP Economy (4/27/2021 12:17:44 PM)

I don't think that stacking with an HQ does anything for CPP recovery. Something I should probably test though.



Nix77 -> RE: CPP Economy (4/27/2021 1:23:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I don't think that stacking with an HQ does anything for CPP recovery. Something I should probably test though.



Tested, stacking with HQ doesn't affect CPP gain.



RobWorham -> RE: CPP Economy (4/27/2021 9:26:07 PM)

Thanks so much for this thread neuromancer and for all the replies everyone.

I think I’m waaay to hard on my men, pushing them to breaking point every week, but now I see that it’s all about balance....

I think you’re in a similar position to me neuromancer, the difference I you are asking the good questions. I feel like a little Dutch boy, frantically trying to plug all the gaps in the dyke, so these helping hands are very much appreciated! 😀



carlkay58 -> RE: CPP Economy (4/28/2021 1:00:58 AM)

Wait until winter when the Axis line springs too many holes in the dyke . . .



CapAndGown -> RE: CPP Economy (4/28/2021 2:15:26 AM)

I don't think anybody has mentioned the balance of keeping your own CPP high and the enemy CPP low. Not being adjacent to an enemy unit may increase your CPP gain, but it also increases the opponent's CPP gain. Another thing to think about is just how drastically entrenching speed is reduced when adjacent to an enemy unit. If the enemy retreats into a per-existing level 1 fort (from a second line of defense), then not advancing into the hex is going to give the enemy a free turn of max construction value to get to the next level now that that unit is next to and enemy controlled hex.



loki100 -> RE: CPP Economy (4/28/2021 8:00:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CapAndGown

I don't think anybody has mentioned the balance of keeping your own CPP high and the enemy CPP low. Not being adjacent to an enemy unit may increase your CPP gain, but it also increases the opponent's CPP gain. Another thing to think about is just how drastically entrenching speed is reduced when adjacent to an enemy unit. If the enemy retreats into a per-existing level 1 fort (from a second line of defense), then not advancing into the hex is going to give the enemy a free turn of max construction value to get to the next level now that that unit is next to and enemy controlled hex.


I'm not saying 'don't advance', I'm arguing advance with a formation not in an assault command (if you can manage this), sligtly different [;)]



TheFerret -> RE: CPP Economy (4/28/2021 8:33:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

There is another way to preserve CPP, especially on turn 1 as the Axis. If you find yourself facing Soviet units you can just brush aside (like those static MG units or NKVD border forces), split up a division into regiments and attack with one of the regiments. Once it's cleared, merge them and you now have 83 remaining CPP instead of 50 for the division as a whole.


A slightly different case - if you have units split into regiments that you want to re-combine into a division (for example, you've split an armored division to secure a pocket, and now it's finished), then if I understand the rules correctly, you gain more CPP if you leave the regiments uncombined for the turn when you are bringing them back together. This is because when you combine regiments, the division takes on the lowest of the regiments' SMP values, but averages the CPP values.

So i.e. you've cleared a pocket and you want to combine 3 tank regiments back into a tank division. When you've moved them into the same hex in friendly territory, they have SMP and CPP as follows:

1st Rgt - 120 SMP, 30 CPP
2nd Rgt - 60 SMP, 40 CPP
3rd Rgt - 24 SMP, 50 CPP

If they're in an assault army, then when you combine them the division will have 24 SMP and 40 CPP, and at the start of next turn will recover (24/12 * 3) = 6 CPP, for a final 46 CPP.

If you leave them divided for this turn, at the start of next turn they will have -

1st Rgt - 30 + (120 / 12 * 3) = 60 CPP
2nd Rgt - 40 + (60 / 12 * 3) = 55 CPP
3rd Rgt - 50 + (24 / 12 * 3) = 56 CPP

Then the combined division will take the average CPP, ending up with 57 CPP.



GloriousRuse -> RE: CPP Economy (4/28/2021 9:08:28 PM)

Does stacking not? I wonder if that got updated somewhere or if I've been laboring under false pretense for a while...

My apologies.



neuromancer -> RE: CPP Economy (4/29/2021 1:58:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RobWorham
Thanks so much for this thread neuromancer and for all the replies everyone.

I think I’m waaay to hard on my men, pushing them to breaking point every week, but now I see that it’s all about balance....

I think you’re in a similar position to me neuromancer, the difference I you are asking the good questions. I feel like a little Dutch boy, frantically trying to plug all the gaps in the dyke, so these helping hands are very much appreciated! 😀


[:)] I figured if I was having these problems, so would others. I'm glad this has been a help to you.

Balance... heh, it's funny you say that. I am one for preaching balance and moderation, and overlooked it here. But at the same time, as the Axis you DO have to push pretty hard to get to goals, but I think there is a definite point where you are just spinning your wheels instead of making any real progress. So yes, we need to find that balance between pushing hard, but not so hard that we just fritter away our resources (including CPP) for no real gain.

It's a tough hill to climb though, a lot to learn and remember, and then mastering it is even tougher. I've made some progress in my latest game, but clearly not enough.



neuromancer -> RE: CPP Economy (4/29/2021 2:11:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32
There is another way to preserve CPP, especially on turn 1 as the Axis. If you find yourself facing Soviet units you can just brush aside (like those static MG units or NKVD border forces), split up a division into regiments and attack with one of the regiments. Once it's cleared, merge them and you now have 83 remaining CPP instead of 50 for the division as a whole.


Thar's a handy little tip, thanks!
I had gotten away from dividing up my divisions at the start, but that is a very good point.

And the additional point from TheFerret about when to recombine is also helpful. Something else to consider as well.


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
I'm not saying 'don't advance', I'm arguing advance with a formation not in an assault command (if you can manage this), sligtly different [;)]


What I've start doing is using certain units as sacrifices. The ones with low CPP and are going to take too long to recover I tend to use them for that sort of thing, as long as they are healthy enough they should be able to resist Soviet counter-attacks, so they go without CPP while other units try and build up.

And of course there are those with already high CPP, they aren't going to gain a lot more, and if I just move them into position they won't lose a bunch, and can be ready to attack next turn.




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