How many weapons should an ammo bunker/revetment/pad have? (Full Version)

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SunlitZelkova -> How many weapons should an ammo bunker/revetment/pad have? (5/2/2021 1:26:04 AM)

For carriers I usually can get an idea of there should be based on the "stock" magazines, and sometimes there is info available online.

But I do not know how many weapons to put in bunkers, revetments, etc.

How much should there be? What types of weapons are stored where?

Are ammo pads used for dumb munitions (bombs) or "higher tech" and more valuable weapons (like ASMs) actually kept outside too?

I often make small scenarios involving the JASDF air base at Naha on Okinawa, and currently it looks something like this. There a five bunkers I think, this is a rough estimate (it varies by scenario)-

Bunker x 4- 40 long range AAMs (Sparrow or AAM-4) each, 100 short range AAMs (Sidwinder or AAM-5/AAM-3) each

Bunker x 1- 50 Mk46 torpedoes, 20 Mavericks or ASM-2s, 100 or so sonobuoys



RoryAndersonCDT -> RE: How many weapons should an ammo bunker/revetment/pad have? (5/2/2021 1:59:47 AM)

In the real world there are explosive limits at facilities at airbases, though I think during a time of war many of these limits will be ignored.
The bunkers and rules are there both to protect the munitions in a time of war, but also to protect everyone in the event of an accident in both peace and war.

Also, many US bombs go through a manufacturing process at the airbase before being loaded onto the aircraft. Kits are put on dumb bombs to make them very smart bombs.
This isn't represented in Command, its low level, but its something to keep in mind when doing research.

I'd recommend looking at pictures, especially if you are interested in a specific era.

And, "everything comes in a container". Check out pictures of weapons being shipped, rolled around at airbases. Could give ideas.

Also, keep in mind if you are working with facility explosive limitation as your limit the rocket fuel in missiles/torpedos is included, it isn't just the warhead.

And, in many countries details about procurement are available, and the locations of squadrons are as well, and one can take the total number of missiles, divide them by the number of airbases, and you can arrive at a rough order of magnitude estimate.

Finally, try different search engines when searching for images or information, and using the correct language for searches (ie, translate keywords when searching, as of course people will use their own languages when labelling images).



Gunner98 -> RE: How many weapons should an ammo bunker/revetment/pad have? (5/2/2021 1:12:12 PM)

quote:

though I think during a time of war many of these limits will be ignored.


I'll disagree with you on that Rory. The standards were created through very hard lessons and loss of life over time. They may be ignored but that would be in extremis only I think.

The Halifax explosion and West Loch are two famous examples of why, both in wartime.

Randomizer can probably give you chapter and verse on this and I am a little out of my depth but I can tell you that most militaries put a lot of thought and energy into making sure things stay safe.

Each item of explosives is given an NEEQ (Net Effective Explosive Quantity) and an NEQ (Net Explosive Quantity. The NEQ of a munition can be mitigated by packaging as you mention or changing the components so that the NEEQ is reduced. Anything that can reduce the chance of spontaneous detonation should reduce the NEEQ.

Side story: British WW2 25lbr ammo had a double base propellant which included nitroglycerine, you could apparently see it seeping from the charge bags in the heat. The US Navy refused to transport this (I don’t know if NEEQ was in effect back then but same reasons) and that is one of the reasons Canada ditched its 25 lbrs for Korea and use US 105mm.

Each bunker or ammo facility is designed to accept and store a certain NEEQ. The berms around these bunkers are designed to funnel any potential explosion up, away from other bunkers or people, and the bunkers are built low and rounded to allow explosive waves to roll over them more easily. A properly designed bunker will have a relatively high NEEQ rating. An ammo pad will have relatively low one. This is really important on ships btw.

Bunkers and shelters are designed to prevent deterioration due to weather as well, which is critical for long term reliability. (another side story but later)

Mixing munition types can raise the NEEQ, fuzes and propellants are stored separately from HE because of this. These rules are relaxed the closer to the front you get and quantities and munition density is reduced. For instance, White Phosphorus (WP) artillery rounds – even though they had a steel casing ¼ inch thicker than the HE shell, were a higher NEEQ. But when stored with HE, the NEEQ of the HE had to be calculated as if it was WP.

Side story (cannot attest to the veracity of this one): During the Falklands war the ships were loaded in accordance with all the rules, and with the quantities a ship carries NEEQ really makes a difference. Near the end of May the Argies hit the ammunition area at San Carlos and destroyed several hundred 105mm rounds and a bunch of other stuff. For a couple days they needed to unload direct from the ships to the Gun Btys, and the ship being unloaded (only one ammo ship at a time in San Carlos for some reason [;)])was primarily loaded with WP. A lot of gorse fires were started apparently.

How does this translate to CMO? Its not critical and it is not as important of keeping combat capability should one bunker be destroyed. I suppose a couple things could be used as guidelines:

• Higher tech weapons should be stored inside wherever possible
• Try not to mix types (missiles and bombs)
• When in doubt, add an ammo pad. In reality they take no time to build and it is better from an ammo handling point of view.



BDukes -> RE: How many weapons should an ammo bunker/revetment/pad have? (5/2/2021 1:36:08 PM)

To Rory's point.

Check out the April 15th Chain Reaction Podcast: Learning From Out Adversaries: Russia Adversaries in Syria.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/chain-reaction/id1455885103

There is a good few bits in this discussion on the timing between ferrying in aircraft and turning over the first sortie, who's good at it, and why.

In terms of munitions distribution, I'd try and break things up, especially if you have a massive complex. Expensive stuff goes in the best shelters for reasons well explained by Rory and Gunner above. In terms of quantities, the best thing to do is google pictures or look at the facility's size in the database viewer and make your best guess. Good luck researching this stuff if you're going deep! It's a project in itself.

Mike



SunlitZelkova -> RE: How many weapons should an ammo bunker/revetment/pad have? (5/3/2021 12:30:22 AM)

Thanks for all of the answers!



tylerblakebrandon -> RE: How many weapons should an ammo bunker/revetment/pad have? (5/3/2021 11:44:15 AM)

Also something to consider is that new or highly specialized ordnance may require their own unique storage. An example below is the AIM-260.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/28796/new-aim-260-missiles-are-so-secretive-they-will-require-a-custom-storage-bunker-at-hill-afb



SunlitZelkova -> RE: How many weapons should an ammo bunker/revetment/pad have? (5/3/2021 11:44:44 PM)

I'll have to go and see if similar things were done when the AIM-9 first entered service in the 50s, or when the AMRAAM entered service.



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