Murmansk Convoy revisit (Full Version)

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smckechnie -> Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/3/2021 11:37:34 PM)

I think that developers should relook at the convoy routes to Russia again. Note attached article that shows all of the ways that the US sent supplies to Russia. Obviously, the article could be challenged, but I was unaware of how much the US helped Russia. 33% of the USSRs explosives came from lend lease!! I would note the following for revision.

1. US lend lease to Russia started in March of 1941. So probably convoys should be pegged like they are to the British vs USSR being atttacked.
2. The Murmansk convoy looks to have been the least used route to supply Russia. Note the massive amounts sent through the Persian gulf. No current convoy to the Middle East.
3. It appears that the Murmansk route was effectively closed from December through February? Too much Ice.
4. Current game has the weather along the Murmansk convoy route as sunny all of the time? Played a game against Taifun and noted how great the weather was year round up there in our game. In reality, the weather sucks most of the time and for at least half of the year, you only have a few hours of daylight. There is basically little daylight time from November to March. In our game, weather up there is like the French Rivera for Luftwaffe and carrier ops. Doesn’t appear to have been any carriers along the route north of a certain point.
5. Note that there is also an air route that was used from Alaska to Siberia to fly in aircraft.

Anyway, game is really great as is, but something to look at, as it is already pretty hard to hold Russia against really good players.



https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html



BillRunacre -> RE: Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/4/2021 9:35:58 AM)

Thanks for the link, that looks very interesting and I'll give it a read.

In terms of 2. the USA can only have one active convoy and that of course goes to the UK.

Although we do have a scripted event for supplies via Vladivostok I'm very hesitant to introduce anything via the Persian Gulf because without a direct convoy line the Axis could raid, I am sure Axis players would ask for a way to intercept these convoys, and there is no easy way of replicating that.

4. Do you mean around Norway? The port itself is ice-free but maybe the chance of rains or storms could be increased along the route itself?



Yvan1326 -> RE: Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/4/2021 10:24:05 AM)

Hello,
the limitation to only one active convoy, is this a limitation of the game?
I assume this is for all countries?
that's a shame!



Taifun -> RE: Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/4/2021 12:23:24 PM)

Of the 17.5 million long tons of U.S. Lend-Lease aid provided to Russia, 7.9 million long tons (45%) were sent through Iran.

The Americans alone delivered over 16.3 million tonnes to the Soviets during the war, via three routes, including Arctic convoys of World War II to the ports of Murmansk and Archangelsk. Also, Soviet shipping carried supplies from the west coast of the United States and Canada to Vladivostok in the Far East, since the Soviet Union was not at war with Japan at that time (not until August 1945). The Persian Corridor was the route for 4,159,117 long tons (4,225,858 metric tonnes) of this cargo. However, this was not the only American contribution via the Persian Corridor - not to mention the contributions of other Allies like Great Britain, Canada, South Africa, Australia, and numerous other nations, colonies, and protectorates of the Allied nations. All told, about 7,900,000 long tons (8,000,000 metric tonnes) of shipborne cargo from Allied sources were unloaded in the Corridor, most of it bound for Russia - but some of it for British forces under the Middle East Command, or for the Iranian economy, which was sustaining the influx of tens of thousands of foreign troops and Polish refugees. Also, supplies were needed for the development of new transportation and logistics facilities in Persia and in the Soviet Union. The tonnage figure does not include transfers of warplanes via Persia.



BillRunacre -> RE: Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/5/2021 9:21:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yvan1326

Hello,
the limitation to only one active convoy, is this a limitation of the game?
I assume this is for all countries?
that's a shame!


Yes, only one active convoy per country is possible.



pjg100 -> RE: Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/5/2021 3:42:02 PM)

Why not handle this as it is handled in WIE, with a DE for MPP transfer from the US to USSR via the Persian corridor? The DE could provide that the MPP shipments via Persia will cease if the Axis captures, e.g., Tehran, Basra or any of the various towns along the way, similar to what happens with the Burma Road. The MPPs available via Vlad and the Murmansk convoy would have to be reduced by a commensurate amount. This would add some motivation for the Axis to push aggressively in the Middle East.



BillRunacre -> RE: Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/5/2021 8:51:07 PM)

That side of it is possible, however the reason it works in War in Europe but not here is because the Indian Ocean isn't represented in that, whereas it is here and Axis players will understandably want to be able to raid the convoy before it reaches Persia.

If that isn't possible then I know it will be asked for, and unless I can work out a way of replicating this possibility then we'd be introducing something to please Allied players, while at the same time frustrating Axis players.

This is really the fundamental issue for which there isn't an easy and straightforward, satisfactory solution.



pjg100 -> RE: Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/5/2021 9:20:44 PM)

Understood. What about a DE that provides for the MPPs to be interrupted or reduced in the event of Axis naval units within X hexes of various waypoints? That would create a notional convoy line that the Axis could raid, and that the Allies could defend, if they so wish.



BillRunacre -> RE: Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/6/2021 9:26:37 AM)

That is one potential option that I've been thinking about, I'm just not yet at the stage of feeling as comfortable with it as I'd like.

That might change, I find it's often best to mull things over and sometimes a better idea arrives, we grow comfortable with the original idea, or we reject it.

For instance, my brain spent months pondering how we could represent the US sending supplies to the USSR via Vladivostok, and then I woke up in the middle of a night with the ideas all fully worked out. Obviously it's been modified a bit since, but when that moment happened I felt confident about implementing it in the game, and it is that feeling that I'm after getting here too.



Jackmck -> RE: Murmansk Convoy revisit (5/11/2021 11:23:40 PM)

quote:

we'd be introducing something to please Allied players, while at the same time frustrating Axis players.


Just about everyone plays both sides- especially the best players. Actually necessary to be a very good player to do so.

Game designers shouldn't worry about pleasing different Axis and Allied audiences- it is the same player audience.

Concerning historically accurate US shipment of aid through the Middle East, figure out a way for the US to have two convoys. Maybe though a proxy. Other games have this- this one should too.



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