50mm Mortars way too strong? (Full Version)

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AngularMan -> 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/19/2021 10:57:37 AM)

In most battle reports I have seen, 50mm mortars are way more successful than machine guns (often by an order of magnitude). In fact, they are often one of the main damage dealers. If you want to see proof of this, just examine some random battle results in the Grand Campaign.

But if you look at the actual history, both sides phased out production of their 50 mm mortars at some point during the war, because they were deemed not effective enough.

So clearly, something is wrong with the effectiveness of 50mm mortars in game. I am not saying they should be useless, but they shouldn't be one of the most effective weapons in game.




Jeff_Ahl -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/19/2021 1:55:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AngularMan

In most battle reports I have seen, 50mm mortars are way more successful than machine guns (often by an order of magnitude). In fact, they are often one of the main damage dealers. If you want to see proof of this, just examine some random battle results in the Grand Campaign.

But if you look at the actual history, both sides phased out production of their 50 mm mortars at some point during the war, because they were deemed not effective enough.

So clearly, something is wrong with the effectiveness of 50mm mortars in game. I am not saying they should be useless, but they shouldn't be one of the most effective weapons in game.




+1



Speedysteve -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/19/2021 2:02:26 PM)

[;)]

[image]local://upfiles/4211/EE93A7B4741A485F90ABB3AEC14494F0.jpg[/image]



Denniss -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/19/2021 4:52:38 PM)

that's rather 500 than 50



Speedysteve -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/19/2021 5:10:41 PM)

It’s the enhanced super 50mm version



Bamilus -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/20/2021 4:27:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

It’s the enhanced super 50mm version


Size DOES matter [:D]



king171717 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/20/2021 7:38:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AngularMan

In most battle reports I have seen, 50mm mortars are way more successful than machine guns (often by an order of magnitude). In fact, they are often one of the main damage dealers. If you want to see proof of this, just examine some random battle results in the Grand Campaign.

But if you look at the actual history, both sides phased out production of their 50 mm mortars at some point during the war, because they were deemed not effective enough.

So clearly, something is wrong with the effectiveness of 50mm mortars in game. I am not saying they should be useless, but they shouldn't be one of the most effective weapons in game.




Ya it does way to much damage, it even does more than the 81mm mortar I noticed.



Arthurius -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 9:24:18 AM)

In my 1941-1942 Campaign 50mm mortars were the best weapon in 95-98% battles! For example 80 x 50mm mortars did 100 casualties and 50 x 81 mm mortars did 10 casualties. Particulary in defence the most effective weapon should be MG-34 and MG-42 Machine Guns. You shuould check the battle resolution code Guys.



warspite1 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 9:31:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedysteve

It’s the enhanced super 50mm version


Size DOES matter [:D]
warspite1

Damn....[:(]



Rusty1961 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 1:46:00 PM)

Studies showed most ground battle casualties were due to arty, most of that being mortars.



king171717 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 7:19:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Studies showed most ground battle casualties were due to arty, most of that being mortars.


No way thats holds for the Germans against the Russians. Especially 1941/1942 when Soviets were very poorly commanded and didnt coordinate there attacks with artillery well, which lead to German machine guns mowing troops down in the open. For the Germans the machinegunner was the life and death of their squad/company.



Joel Billings -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 7:47:57 PM)

Does anyone have a save before a battle we can run to see the 50s doing so well? In cases like these, posting saves is what really helps us look into the combat system.



king171717 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 7:55:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Does anyone have a save before a battle we can run to see the 50s doing so well? In cases like these, posting saves is what really helps us look into the combat system.


Just look at any ground combat involving infantry. Its very consistent. this is of of course Germans infantry divisions attacking soviet infantry divisions. Rifle squads 40 and 50mm mortar tend to the most damage and destroyed.



Mehring -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 8:42:15 PM)

Could be that the general truth that mortars caused more casualties than other systems has been taken to include 50mm. Might want to check Russian light morters too.



king171717 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 8:57:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

Could be that the general truth that mortars caused more casualties than other systems has been taken to include 50mm. Might want to check Russian light morters too.


Just looking at battles for Soviets defending, they have rifle squads 41 with most damage and destroy and mortars 50mm doing around half of the rifle squads. Soviets had a way better 50mm mortar than the germans, heavier and more powerful.

I am playing on 115 for Soviets tho.



carlkay58 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 8:59:01 PM)

Here is a display from the latest turn in my AAR, if you notice the 50mm mortars have a HPE of 3.7 vs the 81mm mortars having an FPE of 1.0:




[image]local://upfiles/35705/244FE123B19E4DAAB7E31EAF3ECB9C87.jpg[/image]



carlkay58 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 9:01:27 PM)

The equipment screen for the 50mm Mortar:


[image]local://upfiles/35705/3430E514D35D498F88E05B8FCEE01B24.jpg[/image]



carlkay58 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 9:02:38 PM)

And now the screen for the 81mm Mortar:


[image]local://upfiles/35705/9C198AC6816344A19B65C9A41A99CD6F.jpg[/image]



carlkay58 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 9:03:53 PM)

I don't see anything in those screens that would account for the 50mm being that much better than the 81mm mortar.



king171717 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 9:39:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I don't see anything in those screens that would account for the 50mm being that much better than the 81mm mortar.



Only thing i could think of is the range. That the 51mm fires closer and thus inflicts more damage. But i have no idea, i am guessing.

Thanks for the screenshots carlkay58



Arthurius -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 9:40:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Does anyone have a save before a battle we can run to see the 50s doing so well? In cases like these, posting saves is what really helps us look into the combat system.


Just look at any ground combat involving infantry. Its very consistent. this is of of course Germans infantry divisions attacking soviet infantry divisions. Rifle squads 40 and 50mm mortar tend to the most damage and destroyed.


Exactly. It's visible in every battle from 1941 to 1942. German 50 mm mortars do around 50% job for soft targets in most cases.



Arthurius -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/22/2021 9:47:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: king171717

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkay58

I don't see anything in those screens that would account for the 50mm being that much better than the 81mm mortar.



Only thing i could think of is the range. That the 51mm fires closer and thus inflicts more damage. But i have no idea, i am guessing.

Thanks for the screenshots carlkay58



Range is only (quasi) interpretation of this fenomen. But why MG-34 are so ineffective?



fulcrum28 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/25/2021 2:34:32 PM)

HPE and FPE in combat report (#post16) what do they mean?



loki100 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/25/2021 2:58:03 PM)

hits per element, fires per element



AngularMan -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/26/2021 3:57:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rusty1961

Studies showed most ground battle casualties were due to arty, most of that being mortars.


There is no doubt that mortars were very effective weapons in WWII, but there is a world of difference between the 5-cm-Gr.W. 36 and the 8-cm-Gr.W. 34. One of the most important difference is the range: in order to fire on the enemy with the 5cm mortar, one had to be well in the effective range of many direct-fire weapons, which means the 5cm mortar could be suppressed much more easily.

Insert Numbers here!

As you can see, shell production for the 5cm mortar dropped off sharply in 1941 never to recover, despite the weapon itself still being produced in large numbers until 1943, while the 8cm shell production exceeded it and soon increased to even higher numbers. If you then take into account that the weight of the shell of the 8cm mortar is roughly 4 times that of the 5cm mortar it becomes quite clear that the 8cm mortars had a much higher output than the 5cm mortars, even in 1941.

So any studies proving the effectiveness of mortars are likely not referring to 5cm mortars.

edit: for some reason I can't post the actual numbers or the link to the source until my 10th post, so you just have to trust me on that one ;)



Joel Billings -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/26/2021 9:31:24 PM)

After running some tests, it seems that the light mortars are benefiting from their short range and going into hyper attack mode at 50 yards. The medium mortars are firing as artillery, and then not doing a lot of firing at closer ranges. So they are better at 300 yards plus but don't do much better as the range comes down. We're going to look into this and make some adjustments. The 50s should be doing less and the 81/82s doing more. As for the MGs, the MGs in the rifle squads are a major part of the hits caused by the rifle squads. In general they seem to be doing a lot of disruption, but not a lot of kills and damage. Probably due to their lack of blast effect. Not sure if this will warrant a change.



king171717 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (5/27/2021 7:41:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

After running some tests, it seems that the light mortars are benefiting from their short range and going into hyper attack mode at 50 yards. The medium mortars are firing as artillery, and then not doing a lot of firing at closer ranges. So they are better at 300 yards plus but don't do much better as the range comes down. We're going to look into this and make some adjustments. The 50s should be doing less and the 81/82s doing more. As for the MGs, the MGs in the rifle squads are a major part of the hits caused by the rifle squads. In general they seem to be doing a lot of disruption, but not a lot of kills and damage. Probably due to their lack of blast effect. Not sure if this will warrant a change.


Thanks Joel for the info and looking into things.



fulcrum28 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (7/18/2021 9:01:23 AM)

In the table shown in post #16, can we know which element fired/destroyed each enemy element?



fulcrum28 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (7/18/2021 9:02:27 AM)

Joel, was that issue with the range of artillery/mortar units solved in the latest patch ?If so which one?



loki100 -> RE: 50mm Mortars way too strong? (7/18/2021 9:42:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fulcrum28

In the table shown in post #16, can we know which element fired/destroyed each enemy element?


you can't ... in the end its not a cross tab display. So you know what handed out damage and you know what was damaged.

The only way to put it together is to watch a battle resolution at #5 or more



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