What to do with Italy? (Full Version)

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Alcibiades73 -> What to do with Italy? (5/21/2021 5:30:36 PM)

Can someone give me a broad outlook for what to do Italy for the first few turns?

Please include what to do with the navy as well. For instance, anyone try to send them over to link up with the German fleet before the Battle for France?



Treefrog -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 12:23:31 AM)

Al,

Sending the Regina Marina to Atlantic/North Sea to link with Kriegsmarine is considered "gamey" by many. In reality Italy had no strategic interests in the North Sea/Baltic Sea to justify sending a fleet there.

I confess I'm not particularly adept at this game, but I'll start the dialog.

My allied opponents like to use the Royal Navy carriers and Le Marine Francise surface units to hammer the Regina Marina wherever they can be found, force them into port, then let their Swordfish torpedo bombers finish the job a la Taranto. The first time this happened to me I think their sustained campaign wiped out all but one CA and one SS. I've gotten better at saving them lately by hiding them until France surrenders.

Inherent problem is the RN is level 1 with more ships plus the three CVs and Le Marine Francise is pretty much expendable. In the face of this a Regina Marina sortie seems both rash and hopeless. At least if the fleet is "in being" it may cause the RN to re route their convoys around the Horn instead of through the Mediterranean.

If the Regina Marina populates the bottom of the Med is causes great loss of national morale.






Platoonist -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 12:56:53 AM)

With Italy I generally spend the first two or three turns filling out half strength units because that's all I can afford on the meager MPP budget. [:D]

Once war begins I will use Italian submarines to scout the path ahead for any troop convoys I'm sending to North Africa. Don't want an unpleasant ambush at sea. The majority of the Regina Marina hides out in the Adriatic ports, playing the classic "fleet in being." The German surface fleet in the Baltic plays much the same role. The temptation is to send them out on hit and run attacks when a tempting lone target presents itself. However, that target might have adjacent friends you can't see yet. That's why an maritime bomber is something of a must-build for Italy.

Treefrog mentioned a classic problem in global WW2 games. The French fleet in 1939-40 is usually, "use it or lose it". Which can lead to some gamey tactics such as throwing ships away in reckless, low-odds-of-success attacks when you see France's time is short.

Overall, I've never been too ambitious with the Italian Army. You're generally just biding your time and holding your ground until the German superdupermen arrive, so you can play the comic sidekick. Plus, you have to find the funds to research a lot of R&D basics like infantry training and naval warfare if you are not going to be completely outclassed. Italian scientists spend a lot of the war playing catch-up.



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 10:58:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treefrog


Sending the Regina Marina to Atlantic/North Sea to link with Kriegsmarine is considered "gamey" by many. In reality Italy had no strategic interests in the North Sea/Baltic Sea to justify sending a fleet there.



Does this imply the tactic is in fact effective? ;)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treefrog

Inherent problem is the RN is level 1 with more ships plus the three CVs and Le Marine Francise is pretty much expendable. In the face of this a Regina Marina sortie seems both rash and hopeless. At least if the fleet is "in being" it may cause the RN to re route their convoys around the Horn instead of through the Mediterranean.



Yes, I learned to "hide" the Italian navy until France is gone, so you don't have to deal with their "throwaway" navy.

And yeah, it's frustrating that you can't close the tech gap with the Royal Navy, because you don't have the MPPs to invest in tech.



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 11:02:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

With Italy I generally spend the first two or three turns filling out half strength units because that's all I can afford on the meager MPP budget. [:D]



Same here. Italy needs more MPPs to function, it seems. In other threads, I saw counsel to the effect that Italy should be the one occupying the capitals of Yugoslavia and Greece to get some MPP base. One even suggested that fighting Vichy eventually and getting that piece of the pie, too.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Platoonist

Overall, I've never been too ambitious with the Italian Army. You're generally just biding your time and holding your ground until the German superdupermen arrive, so you can play the comic sidekick.


Don't you need to at least hold the African possessions until Rommel shows up? Even that requires some prestidigitation that I am unable to conjure up. Also, do you try to keep East Africa, too?



Fafnir -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 3:33:25 PM)

I always send the 2 armies from North Africa to East Africa in the first turn.
Then buy a marine bomber as early as possible.



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 4:47:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

I always send the 2 armies from North Africa to East Africa in the first turn.
Then buy a marine bomber as early as possible.



By what method? Transport through the Red Sea? (I only play vs. the AI.)

Also, how do you then re-inforce North Africa - and what is the objective of the enlarged East African force?



Fafnir -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 9:19:36 PM)

Transport through Gibraltar around Capetown. It will reach East Africa before Italy joins the war.
You have to send the forces you get by deceision event there too.
With that you can go for French and British Somalialand and then for Sudan and Kenia.

If the UK does not reinforce there you should be able to get this. If he re-inforce his units will be missing elsewhere.
It's not easy for the UK to get rid of the Italiens in East Africa.



OldCrowBalthazor -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 9:28:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

Transport through Gibraltar around Capetown. It will reach East Africa before Italy joins the war.
You have to send the forces you get by deceision event there too.
With that you can go for French and British Somalialand and then for Sudan and Kenia.

If the UK does not reinforce there you should be able to get this. If he re-inforce his units will be missing elsewhere.
It's not easy for the UK to get rid of the Italiens in East Africa.



Yep..I can attest to this. I have an MP where I reinforced Italian East Africa...mid 1942 they have fallen back into Tigray and Eritrea with a HQ in Mekele. There are mountain hexes all around to dig into, and my opponent has the bulk of the Indian Army, the South Africans, Rhodesians, Sudanese and even Abyssinians for heavens sake All tied up to liquidate this exclave of Axis real estate.

Mean while....Egypt and Suez falls...........



Torplexed -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 9:47:06 PM)

Good strategy gentleman. Ethiopia can be a real time consuming pain in the posterior for His Majesty's forces to take down even with the threadbare Italian force which starts there. Adding more makes it a tarball.



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 10:00:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

Transport through Gibraltar around Capetown. It will reach East Africa before Italy joins the war.
You have to send the forces you get by deceision event there too.
With that you can go for French and British Somalialand and then for Sudan and Kenia.

If the UK does not reinforce there you should be able to get this. If he re-inforce his units will be missing elsewhere.
It's not easy for the UK to get rid of the Italiens in East Africa.



Hmm, does this work vs. AI though? They have more free units - though I don't know what they get on British African possessions.

Also, how do you defend Italian North Africa if you send everything to East Africa? Just empty Europe of Italian infantry and send them to North Africa?



Torplexed -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 10:08:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alcibiades73


Hmm, does this work vs. AI though? They have more free units - though I don't know what they get on British African possessions.



Mostly some scattered garrisons. South Africa eventually gets two corps which need some reinforcing to bring up to ten of ten. Sudan has one in the same state.

When playing against the Allied AI I don't recall spotting any free units in Africa. I think the only ones I saw were in Russia.



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/22/2021 10:12:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Torplexed


Mostly some scattered garrisons. South Africa eventually gets two corps which need some reinforcing to bring up to ten of ten. Sudan has one in the same state.

When playing against the Allied AI I don't recall spotting any free units in Africa. I think the only ones I saw were in Russia.



Okay, I am tempted to try then. How do you defend North Africa though? Isn't that your main dig as Italy in Africa though?

And yes, Russia gets bazillion free units.



pjg100 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/23/2021 5:18:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

Transport through Gibraltar around Capetown. It will reach East Africa before Italy joins the war.
You have to send the forces you get by deceision event there too.
With that you can go for French and British Somalialand and then for Sudan and Kenia.

If the UK does not reinforce there you should be able to get this. If he re-inforce his units will be missing elsewhere.
It's not easy for the UK to get rid of the Italiens in East Africa.



Yes . . . I can attest to the frustration induced by this strategy, as I am Fafnir's opponent in a current game. Khartoum fell this morning. General Gordon spins in his grave, and Churchill weeps. This is a most interesting game.



Fafnir -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/23/2021 10:00:38 AM)


quote:

Also, how do you defend Italian North Africa if you send everything to East Africa? Just empty Europe of Italian infantry and send them to North Africa?


No, I use the Italiens only for East Africa and as defense units in Europe.
North Africa can either be abandoned (leave the garrisons there) or
the germans go full in to get it.

Most of the times it is a wiser decision to give up North Africa as Axis.
It's risky, expensive, will give the UK free tanks and activate the US and the USSR.

An early Barbarossa (in March 41 to trigger the russian winter) is usually more successful.



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/23/2021 11:05:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

No, I use the Italiens only for East Africa and as defense units in Europe.
North Africa can either be abandoned (leave the garrisons there) or
the germans go full in to get it.

Most of the times it a wiser decision to give up North Africa as Axis.
It's risky, expensive, will give the UK free tanks and activate the US and the USSR.

An early Barbarossa (in March 41 to trigger the russian winter) is usually more successful.


Ah, okay. I ought to try it then. Thanks!



petedalby -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/23/2021 11:17:39 AM)

quote:

I always send the 2 armies from North Africa to East Africa in the first turn.
Then buy a marine bomber as early as possible.


Presumably a reasonable response to this would be an early DoW by the UK on Italy to sink the transports en-route? Must take quite a while for them to get there.



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/23/2021 12:10:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: petedalby


Presumably a reasonable response to this would be an early DoW by the UK on Italy to sink the transports en-route? Must take quite a while for them to get there.


I am talking about vs. AI.



petedalby -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/23/2021 12:29:10 PM)

quote:

I am talking about vs. AI.


I know. I'm talking about MP. [:)]



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/23/2021 12:31:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petedalby

I know. I'm talking about MP. [:)]


Got it; just wanted to clarify ;)



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/26/2021 3:35:54 AM)

Hmm, so I brought 2 Italian armies to East Africa, but a lot of my units got casualties because supply was cut off at Suez or something. Is this a one-time event (I hope)? And is there anything I can do about it?



petedalby -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/26/2021 11:25:36 AM)

quote:

Hmm, so I brought 2 Italian armies to East Africa, but a lot of my units got casualties because supply was cut off at Suez or something. Is this a one-time event (I hope)? And is there anything I can do about it?


Did you also get the optional HQ to appear in EA? Without an HQ you will not achieve full supply. Suez will limit your supply until you take Suez from the Allies.



Platoonist -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/26/2021 11:39:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: petedalby



Did you also get the optional HQ to appear in EA? Without an HQ you will not achieve full supply. Suez will limit your supply until you take Suez from the Allies.



Indeed. Yes to DE 700 would seem like a perquisite.


[image]local://upfiles/9147/1572E14ADE7048998ECCD6A240942DD1.jpg[/image]



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/26/2021 11:43:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: petedalby



Did you also get the optional HQ to appear in EA? Without an HQ you will not achieve full supply. Suez will limit your supply until you take Suez from the Allies.


Yup; it didn't seem to help.

My main issue for now is that I had casualties with every unit in East Africa without engaging in combat.



petedalby -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/26/2021 11:56:43 AM)

Sorry - never experienced that. And you have Graziani in a settlement with a supply value of least 5? Typically units only take casualties if they are out of supply. Have you checked your supply routes? Press 'S' to show current supply value. Press again to show predicted supply for next turn.



Alcibiades73 -> RE: What to do with Italy? (5/26/2021 1:03:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: petedalby

Sorry - never experienced that. And you have Graziani in a settlement with a supply value of least 5? Typically units only take casualties if they are out of supply. Have you checked your supply routes? Press 'S' to show current supply value. Press again to show predicted supply for next turn.


Hmm, I couldn't replicate the problem with older saves. Either this was a one-time bug - or I was mistaken somehow.



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