M4 A2

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werderwayne -> M4 A2 (8/29/2003 9:06:36 AM)
I have been playing the scenario "the Steel Shield" and it is a great scenario (but should have been split into a number of smaller scearios, from my present experience...on turn 23). I have run into M4A2(W). They are everywhere. The odd thing is that from 250m (5 hexes) from DIRECTLY in front my 75L48s bounced off time after time after time after time...I had 6 straight shots bounce off the front of the M4A2. Then A PANTHER ROUND bounced off from 300m, DIRECTLY in front. Was this a fluke? Bad luck? I looked at the M4A3(W) in the game and it says it is also the M4A2. Also, the front armor is only 103mm@38° on the turret and 64@42° on the hull. This shouldn't be rejecting 75's like Russian 45's. I am guessing from the sounds that the rounds are bouncing and not penetrating...am I wrong there? -WW

stevemk1a -> (8/29/2003 11:24:54 AM)
I suspect you may have been subject to a bit of a run of bad luck ... I'm certainly no expert on either the mechanics of the Spwaw armour penetration system, or real world armour vs. shell issues, but I've found that in my PBEM battles, a 75L48 will, given a solid frontal hit at close range, kill or damage a Sherman about than half the time and this decreases as the range does ...(I prefer a flanking shot) On the other hand, a 75L70 will usually kill or damage a Sherman from the front at close, medium, and very long ranges, but nothing is guaranteed ... [SIZE=1]H2Hfr version, Sherman Jumbo excepted, individual results may vary[/SIZE]

Jim1954 -> (8/29/2003 6:05:51 PM)
[QUOTE=werderwayne]I have been playing the scenario "the Steel Shield" and it is a great scenario (but should have been split into a number of smaller scearios, from my present experience...on turn 23). I have run into M4A2(W). They are everywhere. The odd thing is that from 250m (5 hexes) from DIRECTLY in front my 75L48s bounced off time after time after time after time...I had 6 straight shots bounce off the front of the M4A2. Then A PANTHER ROUND bounced off from 300m, DIRECTLY in front. Was this a fluke? Bad luck? I looked at the M4A3(W) in the game and it says it is also the M4A2. Also, the front armor is only 103mm@38° on the turret and 64@42° on the hull. This shouldn't be rejecting 75's like Russian 45's. I am guessing from the sounds that the rounds are bouncing and not penetrating...am I wrong there? -WW[/QUOTE] Look at your preference settings and make sure that the enemy armor is still set correctly. I have played a couple of battles where EVERYTHING was bouncing off of the enemies tanks (and once it was my own). Somehow the default setting of 100% had gotten corrupted and when I looked at it, it was an astounding 1636%. I don't think even tactical nukes will work when it's that high. Doesn't happen often, but it can drive you crazy when it does. Just Berserk or Cyricist. LOL :D

john g -> (8/30/2003 4:44:10 AM)
[QUOTE=werderwayne]I have been playing the scenario "the Steel Shield" and it is a great scenario (but should have been split into a number of smaller scearios, from my present experience...on turn 23). I have run into M4A2(W). They are everywhere. The odd thing is that from 250m (5 hexes) from DIRECTLY in front my 75L48s bounced off time after time after time after time...I had 6 straight shots bounce off the front of the M4A2. Then A PANTHER ROUND bounced off from 300m, DIRECTLY in front. Was this a fluke? Bad luck? I looked at the M4A3(W) in the game and it says it is also the M4A2. Also, the front armor is only 103mm@38° on the turret and 64@42° on the hull. This shouldn't be rejecting 75's like Russian 45's. I am guessing from the sounds that the rounds are bouncing and not penetrating...am I wrong there? -WW[/QUOTE] Were the Shermans higher up? Armor thickness really gets obscene when sloped armor is fired at from below. It rapidly approaches infinity. You can try turning on combat logging (used to be alt-L if I remember correctly) and see what values the game is using for each shot. I just ran a test Panthers and Pak40's 5 hexes away and 3 levels lower. The turret armor effective value jumps up around 440, even apcr won't crack that. combat.txt as follows: combat.txt logging 1 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 15 percent 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 20 percent 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 25 percent HVAP shell hit pen = 331, base = 165 PRM = 1.04, HorAspect = 6.00, VerAspect = 38.57 Temp1 = 0.99, Temp2 = 0.78, Temp3 = 0.68, Temp4 = 0.71, Temp5 = 0.41 GeoArm = 330.52, BalArm = 387.84 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm PaK40, using APCR ammo, ~Pen 172, Armor 387, No Effect 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 37 percent 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 23 percent 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 31 percent HVAP shell hit pen = 331, base = 165 PRM = 1.08, HorAspect = -1.00, VerAspect = 38.57 Temp1 = 1.00, Temp2 = 0.78, Temp3 = 0.67, Temp4 = 0.70, Temp5 = 0.40 GeoArm = 328.76, BalArm = 383.84 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm PaK40, using APCR ammo, ~Pen 178, Armor 383, Coaxial gun destroyed by 7.5cm PaK40 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 39 percent HVAP shell hit pen = 331, base = 165 PRM = 0.97, HorAspect = 8.00, VerAspect = 39.57 Temp1 = 0.99, Temp2 = 0.77, Temp3 = 0.70, Temp4 = 0.73, Temp5 = 0.45 GeoArm = 336.67, BalArm = 402.07 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm PaK40, using APCR ammo, ~Pen 159, Armor 402, No Effect 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 39 percent HVAP shell hit pen = 331, base = 165 PRM = 1.00, HorAspect = -8.00, VerAspect = 39.57 Temp1 = 0.99, Temp2 = 0.77, Temp3 = 0.70, Temp4 = 0.73, Temp5 = 0.45 GeoArm = 336.67, BalArm = 402.07 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm PaK40, using APCR ammo, ~Pen 166, Armor 402, Main Gun destroyed by 7.5cm PaK40 Panther D firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm KwK42 L70~Hit Chance 31 percent AP shell hit pen = 362, base = 181 PRM = 1.05, HorAspect = -9.00, VerAspect = 39.57, BPF = 2.10 Temp1 = 0.99, Temp2 = 0.77, Temp3 = 0.71, Temp4 = 0.73 GeoArm = 337.55, BalArm = 489.57 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm KwK42 L70, using AP ammo, ~Pen 190, Armor 489, Coaxial gun destroyed by 7.5cm KwK42 L70 Panther D firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm KwK42 L70~Hit Chance 41 percent Panther D firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.92mm MG34 CMG~Hit Chance 42 percent Panther D firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm KwK42 L70~Hit Chance 51 percent AP shell hit pen = 362, base = 181 PRM = 0.98, HorAspect = 2.00, VerAspect = 39.57, BPF = 2.10 Temp1 = 1.00, Temp2 = 0.77, Temp3 = 0.69, Temp4 = 0.74 GeoArm = 333.60, BalArm = 478.02 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm KwK42 L70, using AP ammo, ~Pen 177, Armor 478, Main Gun Optics destroyed by 7.5cm KwK42 L70 Panther D firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.92mm MG34 CMG~Hit Chance 42 percent Panther D firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm KwK42 L70~Hit Chance 51 percent 1Lt Greer, reduces suppression Sgt Wood, reduces suppression Sgt Wood, reduces suppression Sgt Wood, reduces suppression Sgt Wood, reduces suppression Sgt Peterson, reduces suppression Sgt Peterson, reduces suppression Sgt Peterson, reduces suppression Sgt Peterson, reduces suppression Sgt Miller, reduces suppression Panther D firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm KwK42 L70~Hit Chance 51 percent AP shell hit pen = 362, base = 181 PRM = 1.00, HorAspect = 6.00, VerAspect = 37.57, BPF = 2.10 Temp1 = 0.99, Temp2 = 0.79, Temp3 = 0.66, Temp4 = 0.76 GeoArm = 326.03, BalArm = 456.05 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm KwK42 L70, using AP ammo, ~Pen 181, Armor 456, No Effect Panther D firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm KwK42 L70~Hit Chance 51 percent AP shell hit pen = 362, base = 181 PRM = 0.94, HorAspect = 7.00, VerAspect = 36.57, BPF = 2.10 Temp1 = 0.99, Temp2 = 0.80, Temp3 = 0.65, Temp4 = 0.77 GeoArm = 322.40, BalArm = 445.59 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm KwK42 L70, using AP ammo, ~Pen 169, Armor 445, No Effect Panther D firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm KwK42 L70~Hit Chance 51 percent 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 39 percent 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 39 percent HVAP shell hit pen = 331, base = 165 PRM = 1.04, HorAspect = -4.00, VerAspect = 38.57 Temp1 = 1.00, Temp2 = 0.78, Temp3 = 0.68, Temp4 = 0.70, Temp5 = 0.41 GeoArm = 329.51, BalArm = 385.55 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm PaK40, using APCR ammo, ~Ricochet!, Armor 385, Radio Mast destroyed by 7.5cm PaK40 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 59 percent AP shell hit pen = 257, base = 128 PRM = 0.98, HorAspect = -3.00, VerAspect = 39.57, BPF = 2.10 Temp1 = 1.00, Temp2 = 0.77, Temp3 = 0.69, Temp4 = 0.74 GeoArm = 333.85, BalArm = 478.76 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm PaK40, using AP ammo, ~Pen 126, Armor 239, No Effect 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 38 percent 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 38 percent 75mm PaK40 ATG firing at M4A3 (75) W at a range of 5 hexes, ~using 7.5cm PaK40~Hit Chance 38 percent AP shell hit pen = 257, base = 128 PRM = 1.04, HorAspect = -4.00, VerAspect = 39.57, BPF = 2.10 Temp1 = 1.00, Temp2 = 0.77, Temp3 = 0.69, Temp4 = 0.74 GeoArm = 334.21, BalArm = 479.80 ~M4A3 (75) W is hit, FRONT TURRET hit by 7.5cm PaK40, using AP ammo, ~Pen 133, Armor 479, No Effect combat.txt logging 1 thanks, John.

werderwayne -> Thanks...I hope this doesn't show up twice. (9/2/2003 5:46:23 AM)
(I tried to post this once...it didn't go through, I hope it doesn't show up twice) Thanks! That's a lot to consider. I'll check each situation. It wasn't an elevation problem, though. I'll check the armor "scale". BYW, the scenario was finished in only about 15 hours!?! It turns out to be a great scenario because you don't know the enemy strength and location, so you must take risks and decide which locations you want to attack, which you want to defend and which to ignore. BTW, I lucked out, gambled in the correct ways and won a "crushing victory", although I think that the score got messed up. I lost 41 AFV's and the enemy only scored 650 points...something isn't right! I DID manage to destroy almost the entire enemy force and took all the objectives. I guess I still don't understand how the points are scored. -WW PS Yeah, the Jumbo's are in a class by themselves.

Major_Johnson -> (9/3/2003 10:01:51 PM)
Yo! I'm playing the exact same scenario by pbem, me being the Allies. It's awesome! I never thought I would like the big maps, but I've really come to love them! So you scenario makers can just keepum' coming! But in reference to the toughness of Shermans against your Panther's, I agree with Willy that you are just having some bad luck, becuase my Shermans have been getting destroyed rather easily, hence why there is so many of them. And I have also run into the problem that Jim1954 mentioned about the toughness setting being at 1636%!! For me, that happened when I started a scenario in SPWAW then finished it in H2H. But I also recently saw the exact same thing happen in my Desert Fox campaign, which yes I'm still playing through the first time! I started it in version 5.0, then after numerous format's and operating system reinstall's, I copied the backed up file's into my current 7.1 version and after a few turns I realised that the British tanks that should normally be easily destroyed were withstanding all shots from my 88's. I checked the toughness settings and sure enough, it was at that 1636%. But with these big maps with so many units comes one more little issue. Check out my thread on "German crews in H2H disappearing. A minor incovenience at best, as anyone with any sense is going to kill off the crews before they can re-enter the vehicles anyway. Buy maybe something will be done about it in 8.0.

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