Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (Full Version)

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Saelon1 -> Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/1/2021 1:43:46 PM)

In the 1941 campaign, a number of units with their end-date set as January 1943, including, but maybe not limited to:
42b Tank Corps
42b LL Tank Corps
42 Mechanized Corps
42 Mechanized Brigade
42 LL Mechanized Corps
42 Rocket Launcher Division

have an end turn of turn 84 (January 24, 1943), while their replacement 1943 versions have a start turn of turn 86 (February 7, 1943), leaving turn 85 where none of the above units are buildable.

The biggest problem with this is that there isn't a table in the manual or anywhere else that denotes what units are available to be built, with whatever build limits at any particular time, so this one turn gap could prompt some anxiety that those units are "gone forever". In my game, when I noticed partway through turn 85 that the units were gone, I nearly went back to turn 84 (abandoning the time previously spent on turn 84 and 85) to build some of those above units, fortunately I investigated further and found that on turn 86 they had returned to be built.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/1/2021 3:29:47 PM)

A screenshot would be helpful because I am not sure what you are talking about. Unit formation availability are governed by their OBs which have a start and end date in terms of month and year (not by turn).



Saelon1 -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/1/2021 6:05:13 PM)

Well, the issue that I am describing is simply that on 31st January 1943, you do not have the option to build the units described in the original post. The forum doesn't allow me to post a link to the imgur album I made of this.

Maybe the issue could be that if an OB is available from its start date to its end date, and the end date is set as January 31st, 1943, the system understands that as between those dates the OB is available, and since in the 1941 campaign turn 85 falls on January 31st, if the 1942 TC OB is available from July 1942 to January 31st, 1943 (excluding the end date), and the 1943 OB is available from February 1st, 1943, on January 31st there is no OB available. In the Stalingrad-to-Berlin campaign, the dates are offset by 3 days I think (with turn 1 being November 19th 1942 in StB, while in the 1941 campaign your closest date is November 22, 1942), which probably means that this situation only comes up in a 1941 campaign game.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/1/2021 11:01:01 PM)

I think you are overthinking this. Build limits are by year and so 26 Tank Corps are authorized in 1942 and 29 are authorized in 1943 and onwards. OB chains and upgrade paths can be viewed in the editor using the TOE(OB) tab. Upgrades are automatic and do not need any input from the player. There should not be any concern of losing units. If a build limit is exceeded for any reason, I believe that the game will simply not let you build any more units. The game should not be deleted units that exceed the build limits.




loki100 -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/2/2021 8:40:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Saelon1

...

The biggest problem with this is that there isn't a table in the manual or anywhere else that denotes what units are available to be built, with whatever build limits at any particular time, so this one turn gap could prompt some anxiety that those units are "gone forever". In my game, when I noticed partway through turn 85 that the units were gone, I nearly went back to turn 84 (abandoning the time previously spent on turn 84 and 85) to build some of those above units, fortunately I investigated further and found that on turn 86 they had returned to be built.


we actually tried to do this and the resulting table was so insanely complex that it was unusable

but more generally, while the desired TOE for new formations and the numbers change you can never not build anything that is currently on the build list (unless you are at or over the turn limit)



Saelon1 -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/2/2021 9:50:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: Saelon1

...

The biggest problem with this is that there isn't a table in the manual or anywhere else that denotes what units are available to be built, with whatever build limits at any particular time, so this one turn gap could prompt some anxiety that those units are "gone forever". In my game, when I noticed partway through turn 85 that the units were gone, I nearly went back to turn 84 (abandoning the time previously spent on turn 84 and 85) to build some of those above units, fortunately I investigated further and found that on turn 86 they had returned to be built.


we actually tried to do this and the resulting table was so insanely complex that it was unusable

but more generally, while the desired TOE for new formations and the numbers change you can never not build anything that is currently on the build list (unless you are at or over the turn limit)


Yes, I can see how the table would be too complicated to be useful.

The issue I experienced however is that on January 31st 1943 (turn 85 of the 1941 campaign), the TCs, mechanized units, and various artillery units actually disappear from the unit builder list. As someone playing this game for the first time, it was frustrating that certain units abruptly reduced their build limit (for instance, ski battalions decreasing from 100+ to 30 unexpectedly in winter 1942, or Rifle divisions reducing from hundreds to 8 at the beginning of January 1943 (though, arguably, there's no real reason to build rifle divisions instead of rifle corps at that point.) (Fortunately, I believe one of your forum posts forwarned me that the rifle division build limit would go down, so I built 20 extra before 1943.)

However, with the experience that units can abruptly be removed from the unit builder, having the tank corps and mechanized corps be removed from the unit builder on January 31st 1943 gives the player an impression that those units cannot be built ever again in the future, which for me at least almost induced me to restart on turn 84 again so that I could build the units I had been planning on.



loki100 -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/2/2021 10:01:50 PM)

we added a warning about the big changes in the player's notes, worth reading those esp for the post-41 Soviets as they cover some of the pts you raise. Admittedly not all (such as ski bns). Also some of the mid-game VVS re-organisations are worth planning for (as they can really disrupt your OOB).

Have checked back to an old save and you are right re the Jan 43 1 turn gap, if its any re-assurance it all returns on T86 (feb 43)

if you still need rifle divisions post-43 then the easiest solution is to build a corps and when it comes to the map just break it down. Personally I miss the rifle brigades more but then I find them invaluable as support units or as emergency reinforcements on a sector where the logistics are weak (& they retain both uses right to the end of the game)



loki100 -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/2/2021 10:04:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I think you are overthinking this. Build limits are by year and so 26 Tank Corps are authorized in 1942 and 29 are authorized in 1943 and onwards. OB chains and upgrade paths can be viewed in the editor using the TOE(OB) tab. Upgrades are automatic and do not need any input from the player. There should not be any concern of losing units. If a build limit is exceeded for any reason, I believe that the game will simply not let you build any more units. The game should not be deleted units that exceed the build limits.




Trey

I've double checked and for reason they do drop off the build charts for 31 Jan 43 (T85), they all come back for 7 Feb.

heres my build chart for that turn

Roger



[image]local://upfiles/43256/D0867DC837FA4315BEAA82D336CE7F65.jpg[/image]



Denniss -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/3/2021 6:43:33 AM)

31st of a month was and is alway handled very strange. Just like it was outside of the current month but not yet in the next month.
You'll also see production of airframes/chassis upgrade on a 31st turn if they are supposed to end in this month. Logic would dictate the 31st is still in the current month so everything supposed to end this month should still be available on a 31st.



Great_Ajax -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/3/2021 11:48:14 AM)

I recommend that Joel move this over to the Bug area for some kind of programing fix. This is not something that I can fix in the data or scenario files.

Trey



xhoel -> RE: Non-overlapping build dates for USSR new unit formation (6/3/2021 4:38:48 PM)

I think we already have 2 items related to this issue on the list already. Wouldnt hurt if Joel took a look at this thread though.



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