WPP - Historical Project

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stjeand -> WPP - Historical Project (6/8/2021 5:02:01 PM)
I decided to try to mod up the 41 scenario to be more historical yet not break the game so far as to not allow the possibility for Japan to win. My thoughts below... India. I have read a few articals on this. The Japanese Empire just did not posses the shipping to supply an invasion of India so I thought of the options below to simulate this... 1) My first thought was just to block all the ports for Axis supply. Easy enough but removes choice. 2) More elegant way would be to check Japanese amount of MS and if 300+ India can be supplied, if less they can not. This is highly unlikely to ever happen but it seemed that if Japanese decided to build shipping in order to perform the invations then it should be allowed. The game does not appear to allow this so at this time this is a "NOT POSSIBLE". 3) Another possible solution, the Axis have to take ports in order to supply Indian ports. In order to supply Calcutta Japan must capture Singapore, Rangoon, Batvia and Chittagong. Then to supply the Ceylon ports they capture Calcutta and Calcutta must be in supply. Then to supply Madras must capture Ceylon both ports and Ceylon must be in supply. Then to supply Mangalore capture Madras and Madras must be in sppply. And finally to supply Bombay you must capture all other Indian ports. Basically a single lost port could put a group of port(s) out of supply. A bit of work to create this but can be done. I do think Japan can take all these places but it will take quite a bit more time and effort. This would have to flush this out in testing. Australia. Same as India, Options below. 1) My first thought was to just block all the ports for Axis supply. Easy enough but removes choice. 2) Thought about the Axis MS again, say 250 MS and they could supply Australia. See above. 3) Just like India specific ports...BUT the Axis would have to take all the ports north of Australia then perhaps each port 1 at a time down the coast rather than being able to jump the line. More difficult as it would just take one Australia corp to slow them down...BUT the Japanese could still do this with effort. This would have to flush this out in testing. Japanese amphibious expansion My thoughts around this were an attempt to steer the Japanese into island hopping rather than mass invasions. Currently working on giving the Japanese 20 MS per turn for the first 6 turns, then 30 for the next 2 and finally 20 more to get them to their starting 200... This means they take time moving through the Pacific which is more realistic in my eyes...though I may be alone in this. After the first 9 turns of auto LCs the Japanese will need to build what they want / require. NOW the Japanese can build LCs if they so desire during this time. MORE to follow... Future discussions: Japanese SNLF, they were normally very small units, 1/10s but used to take individual islands so they should be larger. I am thinking more of 5/10 rather than any full divisions. Still flushing these out... Island Garrison unit, basically a small unit like they have in the 42 scenario but not able build today. Perhaps replace the Mountain troop with a 3/3 unit...or a 2/10 unit. Victory locations, for the Japanese maybe Wake, Midway, Hawaii, for the US Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Philipines... BUT you have to have offsetting VP locations so that both sides keep even. This gives the US a reason to attack Iwo Jima and Okinawa and the Japanese a reason to attack specific islands like Wake and possibly Midway. The Japanese need to be able to win by victory points. They should not be winning via their military. DEI may end up with more locations that have to be taken prior to surrender...BUT have to wait to see what the new changes do, i.e. Batavia, Surabaya, Bandar Lampung then surrenders so it will take a little bit of time to take even if invaded early. Move the southern Japanese transporting units to Formosa so they do not invade the DEI turn 1. Currently have changed all 3 major ports to locations to take. It takes a few turns to get through them now, especially with the SNLF Marines being 5/10s... BUT I have to what happens if they focus on that location in some more tests. Feel free to add comments and thoughts.

eskuche -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/8/2021 6:28:55 PM)
This is a lot of work to “fix” one game mechanic, namely that ports are immediately supplied for free with invisible ships. On the devs’ end, would it make more sense to up the number of MS but also require one for every port size supply? Edit: and make them interdictable like convoy routes.

gwgardner -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/8/2021 8:54:30 PM)
Awesome, stjeand. You modders give life to every game you touch.

stjeand -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/8/2021 10:10:03 PM)
I plan to implement the ports piece for India and Australia hopefully by the weekend... The LCs are causing me some issues. I want the Japanese to just get 20 per turn...no saving over turns but that does not seem to be working at the moment. What I need to figure out is what to give back to the Japanese as most of this mod just takes away... It may unbalance them taking away 20 to 30 points of Inf...Maybe put a few units in the deployment queue.

Numdydar -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 5:18:25 AM)
If you are going through this effort, and I think it is a shame that you need to, see if you can somehow allow Allied production to be able to get the forces they have at the start of the '42 scenario when they start in '41. Also Japan could have easily invaded Darwin so there should be not restriction on them doing that. They could have also likely invaded Perth as well. But taking those place would not have gotten them much of anything so they did not bother. So the game should not give then any special reason to invade there either. Unless they just want to of course [:)]

aspqrz02 -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 8:44:25 AM)
There was, how can I put this, exactly no chance of the Japanese invading Darwin ... and even less that they could have invaded Perth given the distances involved and their overall massive lack of merchant shipping. Well, no chance for anything resembling what a regular person would call an 'invasion' ... that is, a large force with enough supplies to actually do something ... the Japs simply didn't have the ships to move the troops in the first place and, in the second, their MS were significantly slower than allied MS (average 6 kts compared to double that for Allied, IIRC) so it would take twice as many Japanese MS in the pipeline to have a pipeline. There's a lot more, but even the Japanese, first rate fantasists that they were, couldn't ever quite convince themselves that invading Australia was possible. Also note that, though it is rarely shown in any PTO game, the Australian Army, the MILITIA (not available for overseas service, for service in Australia only) was around seven times as large as the AIF, around 20 Division equivalents compared to 3 at full strength. Sure, they were short of a lot of heavy equipment, but what there was was produced in Australia and, heck, the piddling little force the Japs could have landed would have lacked anything resembling heavy equipment anyway. Japan invading Australia needs the help of Alien Space Bats. Phil McGregor

eskuche -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 9:49:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aspqrz02 There was, how can I put this, exactly no chance of the Japanese invading Darwin ... and even less that they could have invaded Perth given the distances involved and their overall massive lack of merchant shipping. Well, no chance for anything resembling what a regular person would call an 'invasion' ... that is, a large force with enough supplies to actually do something ... the Japs simply didn't have the ships to move the troops in the first place and, in the second, their MS were significantly slower than allied MS (average 6 kts compared to double that for Allied, IIRC) so it would take twice as many Japanese MS in the pipeline to have a pipeline. There's a lot more, but even the Japanese, first rate fantasists that they were, couldn't ever quite convince themselves that invading Australia was possible. Also note that, though it is rarely shown in any PTO game, the Australian Army, the MILITIA (not available for overseas service, for service in Australia only) was around seven times as large as the AIF, around 20 Division equivalents compared to 3 at full strength. Sure, they were short of a lot of heavy equipment, but what there was was produced in Australia and, heck, the piddling little force the Japs could have landed would have lacked anything resembling heavy equipment anyway. Japan invading Australia needs the help of Alien Space Bats. Phil McGregor Where exactly are you getting these numbers? I just pulled up the stock WITPAE map, which, to my knowledge, is correct in representation of order of battle and mostly in terms of ship statistics. I cross-referenced combinedfleet.com to make sure the tonnage and stuff was generally correct. IJN started December 7th with just about exactly 50 requisitioned civilian vessels for troop transport, with a median tonnage of between 7000 and 8000 tons. Each of the larger 1/3 of the vessels look to be able to ship an entire regiment, the lower 2/3 about half a regiment. Without going into armchair theorizing about what would have happened if Midway/Coral didn't go as they did and the actual ability to garrison Darwin through the desert, it seems quite plausible.

Shellshock -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 12:00:05 PM)
It seems to me that if Japan could pull together the shipping to attempt an invasion of Port Moresby, than Darwin wouldn't have been out of the picture if they has set their minds to it. At the time war broke out Darwin was the headquarters of 7th Military District, with about two battalions of militia. I guess the question is what to do with it if you do capture it. Darwin is rather isolated from the rest of Australia. Its rail link to the more populous regions of the continent was not completed until decades after the war. The only land link was a rough road to the railhead at Alice Springs deep in the continental interior. That precludes any quick reinforcement but makes an advance inadvisable too. It's sort of a road to nowhere. Of course, I guess you could say the same thing about Attu and Kiska Islands.

Peek101 -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 12:18:56 PM)
This is what Hideki Tojo said about a Japanese invasion of Australia, when questioned about it after the war: "We never had enough troops to [invade Australia]. We had already far out-stretched our lines of communication. We did not have the armed strength or the supply facilities to mount such a terrific extension of our already over-strained and too thinly spread forces. We expected to occupy all New Guinea, to maintain Rabaul as a holding base, and to raid Northern Australia by air. But actual physical invasion—no, at no time."

eskuche -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 12:21:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Peek101 This is what Hideki Tojo said about a Japanese invasion of Australia, when questioned about it after the war: "We never had enough troops to [invade Australia]. We had already far out-stretched our lines of communication. We did not have the armed strength or the supply facilities to mount such a terrific extension of our already over-strained and too thinly spread forces. We expected to occupy all New Guinea, to maintain Rabaul as a holding base, and to raid Northern Australia by air. But actual physical invasion—no, at no time." Those brackets doing a lot of work there [:D] jk It would be interesting to figure out how much if the reluctance was due to fog of war.

stjeand -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 12:23:21 PM)
Darwin will be open after the fall of New Guinea and the Solomons as well as the northernmost port in Australia and then they will have to take ports moving south from there. Keep in mind EVERY WW II game is a what if. What if by mid 42 the Japanese had sunk all the US Carriers and not lost any of theirs? Could they then change their home builds to create more merchant ships so that they could supply an invasion of Australia or India? Possibly... Could then once that was done and the US still reeling from their losses potentially build enough to invade the US? How ever unlikely it might be possible IF they did not have to focus all their production on warship and aircraft replacements. Whose to say with 100% certainty. My task was to make it possible though highly unlikely. At this time I am not able to query the amount of MS currently in the game so I am not able to say... HEY if the Japanese have 250 MS, which I believe is 2.5 million tons of shipping I forget, they could have the ability to invade Australia and supply the effort. If they had 300 MS they could invade India If they have 400 MS they could invade the US. SO I will work with what I have...which will limit them and hopefully be close to this. This is all still in the works and very fluid. I DO plan to stare and compare the 41 and 42 scenario to find the major differences and see if the Allies can actually get to that point. I suspect they can be close...but not 100% sure until I really dig in.

stjeand -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 12:29:55 PM)
Actually taking Darwin does not allow the Japanese to do anything...I am pretty sure supply does not reach anywhere so it is more of a trophy than anything else. And yes the Japanese were stretched thin...THIS is where choices happen. IF you want many of the games occurring the Japanese abandon all these locations leaving no garrisons and keep invading further and further out. While this works at the beginning...when the Allies start to be able to invade they could heavily disrupt this by taking these ungarrisoned ports. Especially in the Solomons...which will hopefully keep the Japanese from invading Australia. As for India that one is a little tougher...I have to see. They are able to push the Indian troops back to Calcutta...the question will be can the mount a large enough land force to push over the river. I suspect it is possible... But the killer has always been the need for the Indians to guard everything behind them. Now there will be less need. So we will see...

eskuche -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 12:45:59 PM)
Darwin would have been if strategic importance to guarantee safe shipping if some move were made towards Perth. However, this probably would have been easier from Java unless the empire wanted to coast hop down the entire continent, which already is, I believe, shrunk a bit in the game’s map.

Uxbridge -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 12:50:47 PM)
Just a thought. If the Japanese couldn't conquer a backwards country like China, while already having large armies there, being close to their homeland with dramatically shorter supply lines as well, how could they possibly have invaded the US while still in China? That force would have been so small that the mere cowboys in Texas could have driven them out. [:D] As I said, just a reflection. Continue your efforts. Meddling with scenarios is great fun.

kennonlightfoot -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 2:18:43 PM)
quote: Actually taking Darwin does not allow the Japanese to do anything...I am pretty sure supply does not reach anywhere so it is more of a trophy than anything else. It gives the Allies a base close to DEI to support retaking it. Putting a Japanese unit there makes that move a little more difficult. Although I think it should be a larger port than it is. Historically the Japanese took the little port seriously: The Bombing of Darwin, also known as the Battle of Darwin,[4] on 19 February 1942 was the largest single attack ever mounted by a foreign power on Australia. On that day, 242 Japanese aircraft, in two separate raids, attacked the town, ships in Darwin's harbour and the town's two airfields in an attempt to prevent the Allies from using them as bases to contest the invasion of Timor and Java during World War II. Allies used it and surrounding area for basing their bomber support for retaking DEI.

aspqrz02 -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 3:06:51 PM)
From a variety of Sources. Dunnigan & Nofi's Pacific War Encyclopaedia, Dunnigan's Dirty Little Secrets of WW2 which are both easily accessible (well, they were) The whole issue of Japanese capabilities in the Pacific were discussed, ad nauseam and in massive detail, in soc.history.what-if and alt.history.what-if back in the day (early oughties). The Japs had shaken loose enough merchant shipping, IIRC, to move around 10 Divisions or Division equivalents around the Pacific ... the rest was committed to supply their oh so (not) tiny forces in China and was unavailable for the sort of transport and logistics support that a landing in northern Australia would have required. The average speed of Japanese MS is a matter of record - Japanese industry was, how can I put this, entirely sucky - their marine steam engine capacity could, barely, keep the IJN in parts and 'high tech' steam tech but they couldn't afford to keep their Marus in the same level as the Allies were. Hence the sad reality that they would require twice as many MS in any supply line since the speed was around half of that of Allied MS ... Then there's the sad fact that, well, Northern Australia is desolate ... Japanese landing parties (and there may have been some) starved (or would have ... read up on what happened to the two German aviators who crashed on the coast in the 20s ... they came close to starvation) ... and Darwin was a tiny settlement back in the day with no easy access to anywhere. There was no rail line and only dirt tracks to Darwin ... the Japs could, in theory, have landed a small force, but wouldn't have been able to supply it or go anywhere with it. I'd guess they'd be lucky to land a Battalion and keep it on starvation rations ... And, as I said, the Militia had around 20 Divisions or equivalents in Australia and, if needed, could have raised more. Supplying them in Darwin (or in an advance on Darwin) would have been difficult, but doable, as we had motor transport and fuel and the Japs largely didn't. Like I said, even the Japanese High Command, major fantasists that they were, never quite convinced themselves that invading Australia was doable ... and they tried real hard. Phil McGregor

aspqrz02 -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/9/2021 3:13:04 PM)
Darwin is in the middle of nowhere and has no strategic resources ... non-aboriginals starve in northern Australia and even aboriginals live in small nomadic groups for a real reason ... lack of food density. Darwin, unless supplied by road from Alice railhead or sea from the southern ports, is worthless. And will soak up scarce Japanese shipping for no good purpose. I would strongly suggest that if the Japs can do seaborne invasions of India or Australia (or the US) ... heck, if they can even supply land forces by sea in those locations ... they have far too much shipping compared to what they actually had in real life. As it was they could only fight in Burma by largely shutting down all offensive activity in China ... they simply did not have the shipping to do both. Phil McGregor

stjeand -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/10/2021 12:28:44 PM)
Port suppression was completed yesterday thanks to no internet due to heavy storms... All ports in India are suppressed until other ports are taken...same in Australia and New Zealand. I will post the info regarding them...but that is a lot so give me time. Currently working on the DEI... Expect to make it difficult enough that the Japanese will not be able to take it until 1942...SO giving the Japanese oil during this time. Not settled on a number but thinking 40 or so...per turn until the end of Feb...But that is debatable. To make the DEI tougher... 1) Change all Japanese starting marines to be 5/10. This means they can not "take" the DEI until either they bring in stronger units or repair these BUT can still take Rabaul and Wake as well as other lightly defended areas. 2) Change all Japanese invading (at sea) divisions to 5/10, see 1 above. 3) Changed Wake and Rabaul to be not entrenched. IF the Japanese wait these locations will be much more difficult to take so time is of the essence. Validated that they still fall turn 1 if the Japanese invade but might take until second turn so be sure to bring naval supply units. 4) Added oil to the Japanese. 40 per turn until end of Feb. They still have to be careful but with the starting should be more than enough to keep alot of their navy at sea and use air units. 5) Changed Japanese LCs to start with 20 and receive 20 per turn, 30 in mid Jan and Feb 1 then 20 again until they have received 200 in total over time. This forces the Japanese to expand a bit slower and not with major units. They have to take ports...then transport in larger units to fight. 6) Added units to the Japanese force pool. 2 SNFL full str Marine units and 2 full STR Inf Divisions arriving in early or mid Jan for the invasion of the DEI. I have to test that but they will be receiving them. 7) Adding VP locations...Wake, Midway, Okinawa, Honolulu. May need another US one to stay even but that depends on Midway's viability. Will probably need to strengthen the Midway unit so that it is tougher to take. Forcing the Japanese to blockade and invade which could potentially create the battle of Midway and will take time. The Japanese units in the area should not be strong enough until 42 to do this. To invade India the Japanese must own the DEI and all coastal ports leading to India. With the DEI not falling until sometime in 42 that should delay the Japanese so they can not just land via invasion and take it. Also cutting back on their LCs makes their invasion locations critical. For example if they do not take Wake and Rabaul turn 1...there is a good chance that unit will start to entrench and then they will require a stronger unit to capture it. Currently a 5/10 marine can take it...but waiting would be bad. That will use up 10 LC on turn 1...then they have 10 more to land elsewhere. To invade Australia the Japanese must capture all of the Solomon Islands and New Guinea. That will take time and should last until early / mid 42...So again should be very unlikely. THIS all needs to be tested. Can't have the Allies able to interfere with this other than naval sorties which should be extremely dangerous. Still all needs to be tested... Need to validate what I take away from the Japanese early they get back...with some interest. Same with any Ally changes.

aspqrz02 -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/11/2021 12:54:17 AM)
One thing you may not be aware of ... Japanese fleet units often had to refuel in the NEI since their tanker 'fleet' was insufficient to move oil back to Japan (or anywhere else, for that matter - they had always relied on non-Japanese Tankers and had very few of their own, indeed, to ship oil back to Japan they had to largely do it in ordinary MS loaded with 44 gallon drums). Then there's the fact that the Allies largely blew up the refineries and many of the wells in Borneo and NEI and it took the Japanese around a year to get them back into *limited" production ... they never got it back to more than 40% of the pre-war level, in fact. The limitation (and the Germans faced similar problems in Russia) was that oil refinery and drilling equipment was all special order stuff with long lead times ... and the Japanese (and Germans) hadn't considered this pre-war. They also didn't have the spare industrial capacity to produce what they needed either ... hence the limited capacity of repairs. So you should, probably, if its possible to do, have a significant chunk of Japanese oil only available in the NEI ports and only from late 42. Phil McGregor

stjeand -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/11/2021 8:19:22 PM)
I was able to complete my first pass at this as of today. I need to test he port supply suppression to validate but below is a list of the changes so far. 1) Japanese LCs start at 20...and they receive 20 to 30 per turn until they hit their original 200 they started with. I REALLY enjoy playing them with this limit. It makes what they capture each turn extremely important especially with the port suppression rules for the DEI, Australia and India. You have to be very careful you do not run out each turn and forget to capture something you need next turn. Left over LC will remain able to be used the next turn. The expectation is that most if not all will be used each turn or else the Japanese will not be able to continue their expansion. 2) All Japanese, but 1, divisions and marines at SEA have been changed to 5/10 and their experience increased so that after repair they end up close to what they had prior. To offset this 2 full str marines, 2 full str inf divisions and one half str div have been added to the deployment queue to arrive for the invasions of the DEI. 3) Some Japanese units have been moved off of transports or put into port. The Japanese army near the Philippines was put in port and disembarked, and the 2 marines at sea north of the DEI were put in port. 4) The Java and Sumatra ports will not have supply until, Singapore, Manila, Kavala Belat, Sarawak and Balikpapan are all captured. The Japanese used these as staging points for the invasion of Java and Sumatra. This will heavily slow down the Japanese in this area. To offset the loss of oil, 40 are added per turn until the end of Feb. That number may be to much but only testing will tell. The DEI also has 2 more morale centers, Surabaya and Palembang (which was the capital of Sumatra). I had to create a new sprite for Palembang as it is not a city and has 30 oil. I took the DEI unit to the Northwest and split it in 2, putting half in Palembang. 5) Indian ports will not have supply until every port between Calcutta and Singapore have been captured including Java and Sumatra. This will make early invasions nearly impossible as the Japanese will only be able to use ship board supply until all other spots are captured. This will allow India and the UK time to put up a defense. The Japanese can still get supply over land via the coastal route if they are able too. This is the simulate the route their supply ships would have to take, hugging the coastline, and if any ports along the way were in Allied hands their ships would be fired upon. 6) Eastern Australian ports will not have supply until New Guinea and the Solomon Islands are all captured. THEN the Japanese must capture the northernmost port and work their way south. This is the simulate the route their supply ships would have to take and if any ports along the way were in Allied hands their ships would be fired upon. 7) Northern Australian ports are more open than the East and West...they can be captures so long as New Guinea and the DEI are in Japanese control 8) Western Australian ports will not have supply until the DEI, Singapore and the Philippines are in Japanese control. 9) Due to the changes to the Japanese units at sea, both the unit on Wake Island and at Rubal were changed to entrenched 1. A WARNING...if you wait to attack odds are they will require multiple turns rather than the single. It would be wise to attack early, at least Wake island and bring a supply ship along. Since Rubal was actually not attacked until 42...this may not be a big deal...but just wanted to provide the information. I plan to test the port suppression this weekend with hopes that this will be ready to be tested by others very shortly. There was a LOT put in for that and I just have not had time to test it. Thanks for all the info for this project and hope to have it available soon.

stjeand -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/11/2021 8:31:45 PM)
A couple future adds I am working one... 1) Changing the Japanese Mountain corps to an island garrison division. Either a 5/5 or 3/3 or maybe even a 2/10.... Just something the Japanese need in my eyes. 2) Changing the Japanese Armored corps to an armored division. The Japanese had no corps but did have 4 divisions...they were also weaker tanks so stats may change to reflect that. 3) Possibly changing the Japanese cavalry and 1 Japanese inf divison to an armored division each. The Japanese had 4 tank divisions but I only see 1 cavalry brigade... 4) Possibly changing the Allies armored corps to a division level...but undecided. US did not really use armored corps in the Pacific so would make sense. Comments welcome...

Cheeks -> RE: WPP - Historical Project (6/11/2021 11:53:35 PM)
100% agree on item #4, armor Corp just not happening.

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